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Steve Hohman & Olivia Espinosa

Cross Lab

A How To , Education and Arts podcast

#197 in How To · 🇦🇪
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About the show

Cross Lab is where trial attorneys get hands-on with the art of constructive cross-examination. Hosted by career actors and expert storytellers Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa—who’ve played mock witnesses in over 1,500 cross-examinations—this podcast is packed with the POV you’re missing and won’t find anywhere else. Join us as we bring together your attorney peers for realistic cross simulations, where they’ll share their trials (and errors), personal insights, and real-world experiences. You’ll also discover how different approaches to the same witness can impact both their testimony and your jury’s perception. BONUS: No matter where you are in your career, you’ll bank TONS of fresh storytelling strategies, reusable cross chapters, and imagination-sparking word choices for your next depo or trial! Don’t miss our special Cross-Pollination episodes, where we explore the layers of effective storytelling for audiences, alongside industry collaborators. Tune in and subscribe to Cross Lab!

Newest episodes

Crossing The Angelic Defendant

1 hr 36 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury attorney Susie Injijian, as well as actor and writer Sara Taylor. Watch as Susie cross-examines Sara, portraying a sympathetic kindergarten teacher whose vehicle struck a Guatemalan-born pedestrian. Listen in as Susie challenges Sara, and we break down how to confront bias in the courtroom. What’s covered in this episode: Talking ‘money grab’ and other biases in voir direWho to call to the stand when the damages aren’t visibleHow to keep a crying witness from derailing your crossThe tech savvy way to make sure your word choice sticksWhat you need to know to blow your witness’ testimony out of the water Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 4:38 The importance of being in a plaintiff friendly county—and how to figure that out 8:13 Broaching the “b-word” in voir dire 16:35 What to do when your client’s damages aren't visible 24:15 Mock Case Overview: Lopez vs Maddison 30:29 Susie’s Cross: Crossing an “angelic” defendant 49:02 How to handle (and stay in control of) when the water works start 1:19:52 The key touchstones that will help you flip your witness 1:27:18 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights: How to Cross-Examine a Sympathetic Defendant Without Alienating the Jury When the opposing party is likable — a kindergarten teacher, a young parent, a community volunteer — the instinct to soften your cross can cost your client the case. But attacking them head-on will cost you the jury. The answer is neither soft nor aggressive. It's factual. In this episode, award-winning trial attorney Susie Injijian demonstrates how a calm, fact-based, step-by-step approach disarms a sympathetic defendant more effectively than confrontation ever could. By respecting the witness's humanity while methodically walking through undeniable facts, she removes the jury's impulse to protect the defendant — because there's nothing to p...

The Cop That Saw Nothing

1 hr 20 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by criminal defense and civil rights attorney Bruce Ringstrom, and plaintiff’s personal injury attorney Fred Bryant. Watch as they put Officer Brown (played by Steve) on the stand and challenge his version of events to prove their client did not knowingly help her son evade arrest. This episode is based on a real case from a listener looking for new perspectives on their upcoming trial. To submit your case for an upcoming episode click HERE! What’s covered in this episode: How to turn minimal evidence into explosive revelationsCreating real-time surplus realityWhy breaking the #1 “baby lawyer” rule can can pay offWhat to do when a witness doesn’t give you what you want The “who’s the jerk now?” method—this is gold! Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 9:24 The blurred line advantages of working with family in your law firm 15:26 Mock Case Overview: State of Idaho vs. Darla Roberts 17:08 How to cross a witness with minimal evidence—and uncover explosive surprises (the good kind) 20:00 Bruce’s cross: Building surplus reality 38:53 Why it’s worth breaking a “baby lawyer” rule 40:25 The top fall back when a witness doesn’t give you what you want 49:52 An easy technique to reset and rattle a witness at the same time 53:44 Fred’s cross: The “who’s the jerk now?” approach 1:08:25 Why tagging your questions with a “isn’t that correct?” can show a lack of confidence 1:13:24 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Build Foundational Chapters in Cross-Examination Before Getting to the Key Admissions Great cross-examinations don't start with the kill shot. Both attorneys in this episode demonstrated the discipline of building foundational chapters — the predicate questions that may feel slow but make the payoff devastating. Bruce Ringstrom spent his entire 15 minutes establishing the officer's role, what evidence he...

The “It’s All About Me" Witness

1 hr 22 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury and family law attorney Shane Henry, as well as noted TV, film and theater actor, producer and director Jean Bruce Scott. Watch as Shane cross-examines Jean, who plays this episode’s mock witness—a devoted grandma testifying on behalf of her son who’s seeking primary custody of his 2 children. Shane challenges Jean’s claims in this masterclass of constructive cross-examination. What’s covered in this episode: The funnel that traps the witness and triggers the jury’s ‘aha!’ momentWhat Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks share—and why it’s essential for trial lawyersHow a fact-focused cross can open doors you didn’t expectThe low-key cue that signals you’ve got the opposing witness under your controlA simple way to collect testimony gold—ready for closing, ASAP Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 2:55 The real power of constructive cross—for your witness, judge, and jury 10:15 Structuring your questions to box in the witness and create an ‘aha!’ moment for the jury 17:45 The “secret” to performing that hooks your audience and keeps you credible 21:25 What successful big-money verdict attorneys have in common 29:30 Mock Case Overview: Stills vs. Stills 34:34 Shane’s Cross: Building a clear picture—one fact at a time 57:14 A subtle cue that proves you're steering the witness 59:56 How to collect key testimony—so your closing organizes itself 1:09:17 Tips for managing performance anxiety 1:13:41 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Cross-Examine a Sympathetic Witness in Family Court Without Alienating the Judge In family law bench trials, the judge is both your audience and your decision-maker — and judges don't want to watch an attorney bully a grandmother. Shane Henry approached his cross of Sandra Stills, a retired schoolteacher and devoted grandparent, with that reality front and center. H...

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All episodes

Crossing The Angelic Defendant

1 hr 36 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury attorney Susie Injijian, as well as actor and writer Sara Taylor. Watch as Susie cross-examines Sara, portraying a sympathetic kindergarten teacher whose vehicle struck a Guatemalan-born pedestrian. Listen in as Susie challenges Sara, and we break down how to confront bias in the courtroom. What’s covered in this episode: Talking ‘money grab’ and other biases in voir direWho to call to the stand when the damages aren’t visibleHow to keep a crying witness from derailing your crossThe tech savvy way to make sure your word choice sticksWhat you need to know to blow your witness’ testimony out of the water Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 4:38 The importance of being in a plaintiff friendly county—and how to figure that out 8:13 Broaching the “b-word” in voir dire 16:35 What to do when your client’s damages aren't visible 24:15 Mock Case Overview: Lopez vs Maddison 30:29 Susie’s Cross: Crossing an “angelic” defendant 49:02 How to handle (and stay in control of) when the water works start 1:19:52 The key touchstones that will help you flip your witness 1:27:18 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights: How to Cross-Examine a Sympathetic Defendant Without Alienating the Jury When the opposing party is likable — a kindergarten teacher, a young parent, a community volunteer — the instinct to soften your cross can cost your client the case. But attacking them head-on will cost you the jury. The answer is neither soft nor aggressive. It's factual. In this episode, award-winning trial attorney Susie Injijian demonstrates how a calm, fact-based, step-by-step approach disarms a sympathetic defendant more effectively than confrontation ever could. By respecting the witness's humanity while methodically walking through undeniable facts, she removes the jury's impulse to protect the defendant — because there's nothing to p...

The Cop That Saw Nothing

1 hr 20 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by criminal defense and civil rights attorney Bruce Ringstrom, and plaintiff’s personal injury attorney Fred Bryant. Watch as they put Officer Brown (played by Steve) on the stand and challenge his version of events to prove their client did not knowingly help her son evade arrest. This episode is based on a real case from a listener looking for new perspectives on their upcoming trial. To submit your case for an upcoming episode click HERE! What’s covered in this episode: How to turn minimal evidence into explosive revelationsCreating real-time surplus realityWhy breaking the #1 “baby lawyer” rule can can pay offWhat to do when a witness doesn’t give you what you want The “who’s the jerk now?” method—this is gold! Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 9:24 The blurred line advantages of working with family in your law firm 15:26 Mock Case Overview: State of Idaho vs. Darla Roberts 17:08 How to cross a witness with minimal evidence—and uncover explosive surprises (the good kind) 20:00 Bruce’s cross: Building surplus reality 38:53 Why it’s worth breaking a “baby lawyer” rule 40:25 The top fall back when a witness doesn’t give you what you want 49:52 An easy technique to reset and rattle a witness at the same time 53:44 Fred’s cross: The “who’s the jerk now?” approach 1:08:25 Why tagging your questions with a “isn’t that correct?” can show a lack of confidence 1:13:24 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Build Foundational Chapters in Cross-Examination Before Getting to the Key Admissions Great cross-examinations don't start with the kill shot. Both attorneys in this episode demonstrated the discipline of building foundational chapters — the predicate questions that may feel slow but make the payoff devastating. Bruce Ringstrom spent his entire 15 minutes establishing the officer's role, what evidence he...

The “It’s All About Me" Witness

1 hr 22 min

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury and family law attorney Shane Henry, as well as noted TV, film and theater actor, producer and director Jean Bruce Scott. Watch as Shane cross-examines Jean, who plays this episode’s mock witness—a devoted grandma testifying on behalf of her son who’s seeking primary custody of his 2 children. Shane challenges Jean’s claims in this masterclass of constructive cross-examination. What’s covered in this episode: The funnel that traps the witness and triggers the jury’s ‘aha!’ momentWhat Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks share—and why it’s essential for trial lawyersHow a fact-focused cross can open doors you didn’t expectThe low-key cue that signals you’ve got the opposing witness under your controlA simple way to collect testimony gold—ready for closing, ASAP Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 2:55 The real power of constructive cross—for your witness, judge, and jury 10:15 Structuring your questions to box in the witness and create an ‘aha!’ moment for the jury 17:45 The “secret” to performing that hooks your audience and keeps you credible 21:25 What successful big-money verdict attorneys have in common 29:30 Mock Case Overview: Stills vs. Stills 34:34 Shane’s Cross: Building a clear picture—one fact at a time 57:14 A subtle cue that proves you're steering the witness 59:56 How to collect key testimony—so your closing organizes itself 1:09:17 Tips for managing performance anxiety 1:13:41 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Cross-Examine a Sympathetic Witness in Family Court Without Alienating the Judge In family law bench trials, the judge is both your audience and your decision-maker — and judges don't want to watch an attorney bully a grandmother. Shane Henry approached his cross of Sandra Stills, a retired schoolteacher and devoted grandparent, with that reality front and center. H...

Cross Pollination: Storytelling that Makes a Difference—From Prison to the Courtroom

1 hr 13 min

We’re calling this special episode of Cross Lab…Cross Pollination! Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are bringing together their community of theater makers and professional storytellers for a powerful conversation. Our guests—Cecelia Kouma, Mabelle Reynoso, and Arturo Medina from Playwrights Project—are producers, actors, playwrights, and educators who teach playwriting in prisons. Tune in as they share their work, their wisdom, and storytelling techniques that can transform how you build narratives in the courtroom. Instagram @playwrightsproject What’s covered in this episode: How to turn facts into a story—even if you don’t think you're a storyteller4 story kickstarters for a compelling narrativeThe essential hook that makes your listener root for your clientWhy “falling in love” with your client is non-negotiableThe no-brainer step to make your opening statement click with your fact-finders Time Stamps 00:00 What’s this special episode of Cross Lab all about? 5:23 About Playwrights Project and their work in carceral spaces 11:29 The power of storytelling for healing and transformation 17:32 Where to start—4 storytelling lifelines when you’re buried under a mountain of facts 25:30 How to unlock your client’s real story—and why they’re giving you the “safe” version 32:40 What the best attorneys we’ve seen have in common 39:23 The #1 thing your listener needs for a story to land and feel real 49:00 How to make sure your story is fleshed out and accessible for anyone (perfect for an opening statement!) 1:06:03 Don’t think you're a storyteller? Here’s the cure. To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How Sensory Details Make a Case Narrative Come Alive for a Jury One of the most practical storytelling techniques discussed in this episode came from Arturo Medina, who teaches playwriting to inmates at Centinela State Prison and Donovan Correctional Facility. When he helps a new writer develop a story, he start...

Expert with no expertise

1 hr 17 min

In this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by plaintiff’s attorney Federico Lathrop and estate and trust attorney Mike Hackard. Watch as they cross-examine Steve, who plays an occupational consultant and defense expert witness. They’ll challenge his opinion on the employability of the plaintiff, whose medical assessments reveal severe limitations that impact his ability to work. Instagram: @hackard_law @fedelawyer What’s covered in this episode: How to balance expectations and earn trust with emotionally charged clientsThe double edge sword of multi-fact questionsQuestions that expose biases—no matter what the witness answersWhat successful lawyers you love have in commonWhy the word “AND” is the invitation you want to give to your jury Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 11:11 Balancing trust and expectations with clients experiencing trauma and grief 19:42 Mock Case Overview: Grayson vs. NextGen and Samuel Dent 21:55 Federico’s Cross: Exposing biases—no matter what the witness answers 40:14 What looping aka repeating your witness’s words does to an expert 45:09 The power (and danger) of stacking multiple facts into one question 49:28 The common traits successful lawyers have 53:12 Mike Cross: Word selection that paints a picture 1:11:48 The magic of "AND" for your jury 1:13:12 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Expose a Defense Expert's Financial Bias Using Their Own Testimony History Federico Lathrop opened his cross of occupational consultant James Tuft by establishing a single, devastating number: of approximately 118 cases in which Tuft had testified as an expert, 107 were for the defense. That's 95% of his career spent being paid by insurance companies, employers, and defense firms. Tuft tried to deflect — "my findings are completely separate from who's hiring me" — but Federico didn't argue. He simply lo...

Emotionally charged divorced couple with Bibi Badejo

1 hr 29 min

In this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by barrister and advocacy coach Bibi Badejo. Watch Bibi cross-examine both Steve and Olivia, who portray a divorced couple where neither party has clean hands. Bibi skillfully challenges each of their stories and their roles in a complex, multi-suit case involving large sums of money, kids and old wounds. What’s covered in this episode: The foundation you can lay that boxes any witness in—and pays off big timeA go-to framework for defending your client (even when their actions make zero sense)What your listener is really thinking when you’re sticking a witness to the questionThe sneaky way to trap a witness in their own admissionsHow to slice away a witness's opinion from the real evidence Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 2:20 The question to ask yourself that steers the judge and jury where you want them 3:14 How to adjust your language for judges and juries—and what juries don't want from you 6:18 A genius ‘common sense’ strategy to defend your client’s actions (even when they don’t make sense) 17:00 Mock Case Overview: Butler vs. Butler 19:38 Bibi’s Cross on Dane Butler: One fact questions that lay the foundation for a big payoff! 38:18 Painting a picture with facts that corner the witness and let their discomfort tell your story. 43:01 How starting with general questions can trap a witness with their own admissions 48:28 What your listener is thinking when you hold a witness to the question 55:26 Cross of Lily: Expertly separating a witness's opinion from the real evidence 1:20:02 Repetition that works for you—no matter what the witness says Bibi’s website: https://www.theadvocacycoach.com/ The Advocacy Podcast https://www.theadvocacypodcast.com/ To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Cross-Examine an Emotionally Charged Witness Without Losing Control of the Examination Bibi Badejo demonstrated throughout both cross-ex...

Toxicologist and expert witness for the state on contaminated evidence

1 hr 16 min

In this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by plaintiff’s attorney Mark Choate and criminal defense/DUI attorneys Chuck Rathburn and Bruce Ringstrom. Watch them cross-examine Olivia, who portrays a toxicologist and expert witness on behalf of the state. They’ll challenge the expert’s opinion on the validity of the BAC and blood draw procedures. What’s covered in this episode: How crossing an expert witness can change your word selectionThe hidden role gender can play in your cross-examinationAn easy demonstrative to illustrate percentage points for your juryUsing the expert to expose mishandlings in the case and create reasonable doubtWhat taking a moment to pause can do to a witnessThe trap you can fall into when you know their case well—and how to fix it Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 04:05 How an expert witness can change your approach to word selection 12:06 Mock Case Overview: State of Washington vs. Oscar Phillips 13:28 Chuck Rathburn’s Cross: Painting a clear picture of contamination 27:05 Approaching gender with an expert? 33:03 Simple demonstratives to illustrate the difference a few percentage points can make in BAC levels 35:17 Mark Choate’s Cross: Determining the level of intoxication 45:51 Leveraging the expert to expose other mishandlings in the case and create reasonable doubt 53:06 Bruce Ringstrom’s Cross: Exposing the expert’s lack of hands-on involvement 1:06:46 The impact your reset has on a witness 1:10:14 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this 1:12:37 The trap of knowing too much—and how to fix it To get free resources for your next trial go to TrialHaus.com Key Insights from This Episode How to Define Technical Terms on Cross-Examination So the Jury Understands What the Expert Is Conceding Chuck Rathbun opened his cross of state toxicologist Dr. Charlotte Ebers with a masterclass in definitional control. Before touching a single case fact, he walked her through agreeing that science is...

Expert radiologist for the defense with 800+ cases on their behalf

1 hr 17 min

In this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa welcome personal injury trial attorneys Susie Injijian and Jon Choate, along with personal injury and criminal defense attorney Russell Goodrow. Watch as these 3 attorneys cross-examine Steve, who portrays an expert radiologist on behalf of the defense. They’ll challenge his opinion that only soft tissue injuries and pre-existing conditions—not lingering effects from MTBI—are present in the plaintiff. What’s covered in this episode: Techniques for a 'yes, and' cross-examination that questions expert conclusionsHow to score points against an expert who protests too muchThe power of improvised loops to solidify words and concepts for the juryHow to leverage the power of what an expert doesn’t knowThe offensive word that will make an expert witness bristle (even if it’s the truth) Time Stamps 00:00 What’s Cross Lab? 3:18 How to start formulating a cross 6:22 Case Description: Sandra Little v. Grant School District & Gary Carpenter 9:20 Jon Choate’s cross: Word choice that paints a clear picture for the jury 19:35 How to stay out of an argument with the witness 29:40 Russell Goodrow’s cross: Loops to control a witness and an easy physical demonstrative 40:55 What to do when a witness that won’t answer the question 49:50 Susie Injijan’s cross: Techniques for being an effective teacher/guide for the jury 1:00:47 The word that no expert will want to hear (because it’s sooo good for you) 1:04:48 Your biggest weapon in the courtroom 1:09:44 Top takeaways of you had to cross a witness like this Would you like to be a guest or have an idea for a future episode, reach out to us here! Cross Lab is powered by LawPods. Get FREE narrative building resources for the courtroom here! Key Insights from This Episode How to Use a Defense Expert to Retell the Violence of the Accident for the Jury John Choate's cross of defense radiologist Dr. Benjamin Williams barely touched radiology at all — and that was entirely by d...

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