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Jason Pack

Disorder

A Politics , News and Government podcast

#149 in Politics · 🇧🇷 #165 in Politics · 🇮🇹
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About the show

Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day. We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder. Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world. To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club Website: https://disordershow.com/

Newest episodes

Ep 219: Midterm Shockwaves — Markets, Israel and Ukraine

52 min

The US midterms have rattled Wall Street and shaken the geopolitical chessboard. Jason is joined by Out of Order host Mark Lobel to ask: is this a turning point for Order, or the start of even more Trumpian chaos? From tumbling AI and defence stocks to Anthropic’s blockbuster IPO, they unpack the financial fallout. Then to Israel: can Gadi Eisenkot assemble a government and end the Netanyahu era — and why have the betting markets got the coalition arithmetic so wrong? In Ukraine, Russian attacks on the power grid intensify ahead of Abu Dhabi peace talks. Could Trump’s hunger for a deal leave Europe and Ukraine on the menu? And what would credible European security guarantees look like? ORDERING THE DISORDER Wage insurance for the AI transition; bold but practical European incentives for democratic post-Bibi change in Israel; and real security guarantees for Ukraine. Mark and Jason explain how we can have less wishful thinking, more strategic courage. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS In the Ep 219 bonus only for Mega Orderers entitled: Think Before EU Speak — Burnham’s Brexit Gamble’, Jason and Mark debate France’s protest wave and Andy Burnham’s Brexit gamble. Could a Norway-plus reset help Britain — or hand Nigel Farage the perfect immigration argument? Join the Mega Orderers at https://disordershow.com/club. SHOWNOTES LINKS — MAIN EPISODE Associated Press — From high-flying AI stocks to tariff-hit alcohol companies, the midterms shook up Wall Street — https://apnews.com/article/4ac9a6a3c35aeec37374fc8083bf9395 Al Jazeera — Eisenkot tasked with forming a new Israeli coalition government — https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/11/8/israels-president-tasks-eisenkot-to-form-new-coalition-government Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty — Russian strikes on energy targets leave Ukrainians without electricity — https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-strikes-ukraine-energy/33893219.html The Babylon Bee — Cheer Up, Friends! Here Are 8 Silver Linings Of The Republicans Getting Blown Out (satire) — htt...

Ep 218: The Blue Tsunami cometh! Has America Finally Rejected Trumpism?

1 hr 5 min

The morning after the 2026 US midterms, Jason Pack and Jane Kinninmont reunite for an emergency episode of Disorder to celebrate what Jason calls the greatest victory for American democracy in his lifetime. The predicted blue wave has become a blue tsunami, with Democrats making extraordinary gains in traditionally Republican territory, from Texas to South Carolina. Trump has even accepted the results! Has American democracy just saved itself? From Jason's perspective the word relief doesn't capture it. There was no electoral violence. there was no rigging. There was genuine uplifting democratic accountability... Jason is ecstatic, proud, and in disbelief. Jane is cautiously optimistic. Together they unpack the scale of the electoral earthquake, why Trump's promises on inflation, corruption and foreign wars have backfired, and how figures like James Talarico and Jon Ossoff could reshape the Democratic Party. Is this the beginning of the end for MAGA? And can a fifteen-point electoral swing finally break America's seemingly permanent political polarisation? Then we zoom out. Could a newly empowered Congress impeach Pete Hegseth, investigate the Epstein files and reassert its constitutional authority? What does Trump's humiliation mean for Putin, Zelensky, Netanyahu, the Iran war and Europe's far-right populists? Will a weakened Trump seek revenge, or desperately chase a foreign-policy victory? ORDERING THE DISORDER: Elections still matter. Voters can change their minds, authoritarianism can be defeated, and democracy can hold its leaders accountable. But winning an election is only the beginning: restoring checks and balances, tackling corruption and rebuilding a functioning political centre will require sustained effort. Jason wants a maximalist programme of accountability; Jane reminds us that democratic renewal needs broad coalitions, not simply partisan revenge. And perhaps, for one glorious day, the Orderers can allow themselves a little joy. We request that...

Ep 217. Is the US Constitution Causing America’s Disorder? The Midterms, Trump and the Case for Reform

55 min

In honour of the 2026 midterms, Jason is joined by Beau Breslin, Skidmore College political scientist and author of ‘A Constitution for the Living’, to ask a rather awkward question: what if America’s political dysfunction isn’t just about Trump, polarization or bad politicians — but the unintended consequences of the Constitution itself? From Jefferson’s argument for rewriting the Constitution every generation to Madison’s preference for continuity, they explore how the constitutional compromises around the following issues--the Senate, the Electoral College, gerrymandering, and presidential war powers--laid the door open to our current dysfunction. Given that the constitution is not really functioning anymore we ask: Can Congress reclaim its power of the purse? Has Citizens United helped turn democracy into plutocracy? And why are politicians so reluctant to make the case for structural reform? They also consider what a new Congress might actually change — before Beau offers a surprisingly practical prescription for Ordering the American disorder: bring back the bowling league. It may be easier than impeaching a president. ORDERING THE DISORDER: Rebuilding American democracy requires enforceable checks, fairer elections and institutions that reconnect citizens — not simply changing the politicians at the top. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: Jason and Beau convene their own imaginary constitutional convention. One to five senators per state based on population! Term limits, independent redistricting, a parliamentary-style way to remove presidents, public campaign funding and a redesigned Electoral College!! Join at https://disordershow.com/club to hear what they would rewrite and how. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Beau Breslin — A Constitution for the Living (Skidmore College overview) https://www.skidmore.edu/news/2022/0106-breslin-b...

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The newest 50 of 243 episodes

Ep 219: Midterm Shockwaves — Markets, Israel and Ukraine

52 min

The US midterms have rattled Wall Street and shaken the geopolitical chessboard. Jason is joined by Out of Order host Mark Lobel to ask: is this a turning point for Order, or the start of even more Trumpian chaos? From tumbling AI and defence stocks to Anthropic’s blockbuster IPO, they unpack the financial fallout. Then to Israel: can Gadi Eisenkot assemble a government and end the Netanyahu era — and why have the betting markets got the coalition arithmetic so wrong? In Ukraine, Russian attacks on the power grid intensify ahead of Abu Dhabi peace talks. Could Trump’s hunger for a deal leave Europe and Ukraine on the menu? And what would credible European security guarantees look like? ORDERING THE DISORDER Wage insurance for the AI transition; bold but practical European incentives for democratic post-Bibi change in Israel; and real security guarantees for Ukraine. Mark and Jason explain how we can have less wishful thinking, more strategic courage. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS In the Ep 219 bonus only for Mega Orderers entitled: Think Before EU Speak — Burnham’s Brexit Gamble’, Jason and Mark debate France’s protest wave and Andy Burnham’s Brexit gamble. Could a Norway-plus reset help Britain — or hand Nigel Farage the perfect immigration argument? Join the Mega Orderers at https://disordershow.com/club. SHOWNOTES LINKS — MAIN EPISODE Associated Press — From high-flying AI stocks to tariff-hit alcohol companies, the midterms shook up Wall Street — https://apnews.com/article/4ac9a6a3c35aeec37374fc8083bf9395 Al Jazeera — Eisenkot tasked with forming a new Israeli coalition government — https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/11/8/israels-president-tasks-eisenkot-to-form-new-coalition-government Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty — Russian strikes on energy targets leave Ukrainians without electricity — https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-strikes-ukraine-energy/33893219.html The Babylon Bee — Cheer Up, Friends! Here Are 8 Silver Linings Of The Republicans Getting Blown Out (satire) — htt...

Ep 218: The Blue Tsunami cometh! Has America Finally Rejected Trumpism?

1 hr 5 min

The morning after the 2026 US midterms, Jason Pack and Jane Kinninmont reunite for an emergency episode of Disorder to celebrate what Jason calls the greatest victory for American democracy in his lifetime. The predicted blue wave has become a blue tsunami, with Democrats making extraordinary gains in traditionally Republican territory, from Texas to South Carolina. Trump has even accepted the results! Has American democracy just saved itself? From Jason's perspective the word relief doesn't capture it. There was no electoral violence. there was no rigging. There was genuine uplifting democratic accountability... Jason is ecstatic, proud, and in disbelief. Jane is cautiously optimistic. Together they unpack the scale of the electoral earthquake, why Trump's promises on inflation, corruption and foreign wars have backfired, and how figures like James Talarico and Jon Ossoff could reshape the Democratic Party. Is this the beginning of the end for MAGA? And can a fifteen-point electoral swing finally break America's seemingly permanent political polarisation? Then we zoom out. Could a newly empowered Congress impeach Pete Hegseth, investigate the Epstein files and reassert its constitutional authority? What does Trump's humiliation mean for Putin, Zelensky, Netanyahu, the Iran war and Europe's far-right populists? Will a weakened Trump seek revenge, or desperately chase a foreign-policy victory? ORDERING THE DISORDER: Elections still matter. Voters can change their minds, authoritarianism can be defeated, and democracy can hold its leaders accountable. But winning an election is only the beginning: restoring checks and balances, tackling corruption and rebuilding a functioning political centre will require sustained effort. Jason wants a maximalist programme of accountability; Jane reminds us that democratic renewal needs broad coalitions, not simply partisan revenge. And perhaps, for one glorious day, the Orderers can allow themselves a little joy. We request that...

Ep 217. Is the US Constitution Causing America’s Disorder? The Midterms, Trump and the Case for Reform

55 min

In honour of the 2026 midterms, Jason is joined by Beau Breslin, Skidmore College political scientist and author of ‘A Constitution for the Living’, to ask a rather awkward question: what if America’s political dysfunction isn’t just about Trump, polarization or bad politicians — but the unintended consequences of the Constitution itself? From Jefferson’s argument for rewriting the Constitution every generation to Madison’s preference for continuity, they explore how the constitutional compromises around the following issues--the Senate, the Electoral College, gerrymandering, and presidential war powers--laid the door open to our current dysfunction. Given that the constitution is not really functioning anymore we ask: Can Congress reclaim its power of the purse? Has Citizens United helped turn democracy into plutocracy? And why are politicians so reluctant to make the case for structural reform? They also consider what a new Congress might actually change — before Beau offers a surprisingly practical prescription for Ordering the American disorder: bring back the bowling league. It may be easier than impeaching a president. ORDERING THE DISORDER: Rebuilding American democracy requires enforceable checks, fairer elections and institutions that reconnect citizens — not simply changing the politicians at the top. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: Jason and Beau convene their own imaginary constitutional convention. One to five senators per state based on population! Term limits, independent redistricting, a parliamentary-style way to remove presidents, public campaign funding and a redesigned Electoral College!! Join at https://disordershow.com/club to hear what they would rewrite and how. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Beau Breslin — A Constitution for the Living (Skidmore College overview) https://www.skidmore.edu/news/2022/0106-breslin-b...

Ep 216: Listener Questions: Has Centrism Failed, Is French Disorder spreading, Can Ukraine Hold On, and Who Can Order the Disorder?

47 min

Jason and Jane are back with your questions — and an encouragingly modest agenda: saving centrism, standing by Ukraine, surviving the US midterms, tackling climate change and keeping the Red Sea open. Is anti-incumbency a symptom of a broken social contract? Can democracies outlast Putin without American leadership? And is a protest movement without a concrete demand doomed to achieve nothing? We also tackle Trump’s Russian diesel deal, whether Trump will fightback after a midterms loss coherent fightback, what COP31 can achieve in Antalya, and how the Houthis connect the Iran war to the Horn of Africa. Along the way, Jason offers the Democrats a slogan, and we discover that puppet satire may be the most reliable form of political analysis. ORDERING THE DISORDER: Big collective-action problems need leadership, enforceable rules and practical demands — not just outrage. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: Israel votes on 27 October. Could Netanyahu survive yet again? Jason and Jane examine Gadi Eisenkot, Naftali Bennett, Avigdor Lieberman and the Arab parties; ultra-Orthodox conscription; and the prospect of a knesset that cannot form a government. Join at https://disordershow.com/club. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Disorder Ep 212 — Mark Galeotti on War Putinism and Russian bears https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/502c88e21901dc3f66bac9d075868ce5dd86ca63/view The Rest Is Politics: Leading — Mary Trump, “Trump’s Niece on Why He’s on Putin’s Side” https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/trumps-niece-on-why-hes-on-putins-side/id1665265193?i=1000796648618 The Rest Is Politics — Trump and Putin vs Zelensky: Is Europe Sleepwalking into Disaster? https://www.iheart.com/podcast/867-the-rest-is-politics-107223135/episode/581-trump-and-putin-vs-zelensky-348060976/ Puppet Regime — official political satire site https://puppetregime.com/ Spitting Image — of...

Ep 215. Who is the real Nigel Farage? John Sweeney

54 min

As right-wing populist and far-right parties see a major rise across Europe, Nigel Farage is one of the most consequential politicians of our time.   He may be the UK’s next Prime Minister.  Investigative journalist, and best-selling author, John Sweeney is a thorn in Nigel Farage’s side. He is the Reform UK correspondent of the Nerve. He has covered wars, revolutions and disorder in a hundred countries, including going undercover in Chechnya, North Korea and Zimbabwe. He’s written 17 books including the Sunday Times bestseller ‘Killer in the Kremlin’ about Vladimir Putin.   In this lively interview, which includes explicit language, about his new, explosive book ‘The Real Nigel Farage’ Sweeney does not hold back, citing well-sourced allegations, suggesting the charismatic and popular Reform UK leader is cruel, chaotic and akin to a leader of a cult.  It's a packed hour full of startling allegations, such as Farage not liking working class people and academics, his sympathies towards Vladimir Putin and his narcissistic tendencies.   Nigel Farage, as Sweeney himself makes clear throughout the interview, denies any wrongdoing and has said of Sweeney that he has caused him more misery than anyone else in 25 years of politics. Sweeney says Farage has not yet sued about any of the allegations in his book.   Also in this interview, Sweeney reveals what really happened that caused his infamous shouting match against Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis, which has been seen by millions of people around the world.   Sweeney also tells Out of Order with Mark Lobel why he thinks child serial killer Lucy Letby is innocent. Sweeney has reported on women wrongly jailed for murder before and revealed flaws in the case against Sally Clarke. Her verdict was subsequently overturned in 2003.  LINKS:  Buy John’s book, ‘The Real Nigel Farage’ here: https://amzn.eu/d/07m4laz3   Crowdfunders for Ukraine: https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/qr/XWJOKwDn?utm_campaign=sharemodal&utm_medium=referral&...

Ep 214. France Burns, Britain Borrows, and AI Takes Over

56 min

From tear gassing student protestors in France to Britain’s chaotic party conferences with their controversial motions, Jason and Jane ask whether Western democracies can still deliver anything positive for the next generation. They take on Labour’s spending promises, the Tory’s bizzarre tax cut pledges, the Greens’ Zionism is Racism controversy and the growing power of bond markets over elected governments. Then: are AI and its creators taking over? Jane reports from the UN General Assembly on the push for global AI rules. After the break, we turn to the US midterms and Iranian-linked security threats in Britain. Plus, Jason finally learns what “squeaky bum time” means. And apparently it is not only about clearing the midpoint. Then in the MEGA ORDERERS BONUS just for our subscribers: Can Trump Tariff His Way to a Bolsonaro Victory? Brazil’s election, the Bolsonaro comeback, Lula’s failures, crime, evangelical politics and whether economic pressure is becoming a new form of foreign election interference. Join the Mega Orderers Club: https://disordershow.com/club And in the ORDERING THE DISORDER: Democracies need room to invest in the next generation and international cooperation to ensure AI serves people rather than addiction, polarisation and dominance. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Have the Greens just voted for a de facto ban on Jews? https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000793267697 More on this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/oct/02/green-party-anti-zionism-motion-attempt-tell-jews-how-to-think 'Everyone hates the police' – what France's school protests reveal about a divided nation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crq5nlqnn184o  George McDonagh produced Black Box about AI https://www.theguardian.com/technology/audio/2026/sep/03/black-box-the-chatbots-spirals-ai-psychosis-p...

Ep 213 The Democratic Identity ahead of the Midterms with Erin Petrey

33 min

Jason is joined by former Kentucky congressional candidate Erin Petrie, board member of Bourbon Women and active DAR member, to dissect the ideological clash at the heart of the American left. They discuss whether progressive slogans like "abolish ICE" drive moderate voters into Trumpism, how Citizens United and billionaire donors have created a pay-to-play system and why politicians in Washington fail to address the affordability crisis in rural America. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: What do Erin’s experiences in post-revolutionary Libya reveal about the collapse of civic trust back home? Then, as Jason and Erin Order the Disorder, they debate whether centrist pragmatic realism or progressive dreaming is the path forward. They explore critical Senate and House races to watch in North Carolina and Texas, whether Democrats should pack the Supreme Court to counter executive overreach, and how international trade and tariffs could hit MAGA voters where it hurts. Plus: can the rule of law still win in Trump’s America, or must centrist Democrats go lower to actually restore order? Join the Mega Orderers Club for the full bonus:  https://disordershow.com/club Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to Ordering the Disorder:  https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Erin’s Website:  https://erinpetrey.com/ Erin’s Podcast:  https://www.thekentuckyedge.com/on-the-edge-with-erin-petrey/ Kentucky Educational Television (KET) Debate Coverage Citizens United v. FEC:  https://www.fec.gov/legal-resources/court-cases/citizens-united-v-fec/ History of ICE: https://www.dhs.gov/history Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 212. The Rampaging of the Russian Bears and Welcome to ‘War Putinism’ With Mark Galeotti

1 hr 0 min

What exactly is “War Putinism” — and how long can it survive? Jason is joined by Russia expert Mark Galeotti, host of In Moscow’s Shadows, to get inside the increasingly militarised, kleptocratic system Putin has built. They discuss Russia’s recent Duma elections, whether the war economy is devouring Russia’s future, how corruption changes when elites stop believing the system will last forever, and why Russia is so effective at exploiting divisions in Western societies. Then they Order the Disorder: Jason and Mark disagree agreeably over whether Europe needs greater unity or much bolder action against Russia — before exploring financial enforcement, sanctions, Russian money flows and what the West could actually do to constrain Putin’s capacity to disorder the international system. And, naturally, there are bears. Lots of rampaging Russian bears. MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: Can Ukraine actually win? Responding to a listener challenge, Jason and Mark debate what Russian defeat could realistically mean, whether any settlement merely gives Putin time to regroup, and what security guarantees Ukraine would actually need. Plus: even more on Russia’s increasingly disorderly bears. Join the Mega Orderers Club for the full bonus: https://disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to Ordering the Disorder: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS Mark Galeotti’s In Moscow’s Shadows: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-moscows-shadows/id1510124746 In Moscow’s Shadows 264: Russia’s Bear(s) On The March: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/in-moscows-shadows-264-russias-bear-s-on-the-march/id1510124746?i=1000791844169 Our recent episode with Hanna Notte — Can Putin Outlast the West (by Disordering it)?: https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/35b8c221b3fca72fafb5a4b0fee7924f22d97423/view Disorder Ep. 196 with Jamison Firestone — Rule of Lies: The Origin Story of Putin’s Russia: https://podcasts....

Ep 211. Peacemakers: Do Aziz Abu Sarah and Maoz Inon have the answers to ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

56 min

This is a story about an Israeli and a Palestinian who refuse to give up. Instead, they teach us that “Peace is an action”. Rejecting revenge and rage, Aziz offers an image that stays with us: anger is like nuclear power. It can destroy, or it can light a path. This is a conversation about what it takes to choose the latter, and what the rest of us might do next. Maoz Inon's parents were killed in the Hamas attacks of 7 October 2023. Aziz Abu Sarah's brother was killed by injuries from torture he suffered in Israeli custody. They have every reason to know what this conflict costs. Together, they insist that its future can still be peace. In this episode of Out of Order, Mark Lobel, a British Jew and journalist, speaks with the Israeli and Palestinian co-authors of The Future Is Peace, alongside his childhood friend Rida Saïd, a British Muslim, entrepreneur and advisor in the Middle East, dedicated to peace and dialogue in the region. Their conversation moves from grief and anger to the hard work of building a movement: protecting Palestinian farmers during the olive harvest, teaching young women in the West Bank, creating a place where Israelis and Palestinians can encounter each other’s stories, and pressing people with power to act.  The peace activists also share their thoughts on: Ed Sheeran, Macklemore, Ed Miliband, the UK government’s sanctions against West Bank settlements, the upcoming Israeli and Palestinian elections and Aziz’s assertion that just three and a half percent of a society can change the social and political structure of a country. Mark and Rida ask the questions that test that vision. Why spend so much time appealing to audiences abroad? What should happen when language meant to demand freedom makes someone else afraid? And, if the politicians will not lead, who will? Guests: Maoz Inon, Aziz Abu Sarah, Rida Saïd  Producer: George McDonagh  Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early release episodes and more: https://disordershow....

Ep 210. Can Putin Outlast the West (by Disordering it)? With Hanna Notte

36 min

Four and a half years after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Putin hasn’t won. But Russia hasn’t been isolated either. In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Russia expert Hanna Notte, author of We Shall Outlast Them: Putin’s Global Campaign to Defeat the West, to explore how the Ukraine war has become the organising principle of Russian foreign policy — and a much wider struggle over global order. How has Moscow cultivated relationships with China, India, Iran and the Global South? Does Russia actively benefit from global Disorder? And does Putin really need to keep fighting to preserve his regime — or does he continue simply because he believes Russia can still outlast Ukraine and its Western supporters? Hanna also draws on her years living in and travelling through Russia to unpack stoikost — endurance and resilience — and the Russian narratives of suffering, self-reliance and victimhood. As they Order the Disorder, they look at what would actually prove Putin’s wager wrong? Hanna argues that Europe needs above all to remain steady: keep Ukraine economically and militarily viable, strengthen its air defences, squeeze Russia’s oil revenues and shadow fleet, and demonstrate that Moscow cannot simply wait for Western resolve to collapse. For Mega Orderers, hear Jason and Hanna get much more granular about where the war stands right now. Join the Mega Orderers Club for the full bonus: https://disordershow.com/club SHOW NOTES Buy Hanna Notte’s We Shall Outlast Them: Putin’s Global Campaign to Defeat the West in the UK: https://www.hatchards.co.uk/book/we-shall-outlast-them/hanna-notte/9781324117018 Hanna Notte discusses We Shall Outlast Them on the Kennan Institute’s The Long View — Putin’s Campaign to Defeat the West: https://www.kennaninstitute.org/past-events Mark Galeotti’s In Moscow’s Shadows: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-moscows-shadows/id1510124746 Mark Galeotti on Hidden Forces — The West’s Forgotten War and the New Russia:...

Ep 209. Listener Questions: AI Doom, Migration, Yemen and the Search for Order

46 min

It’s our favourite time of the month: listener questions time! Jason and Jane tackle migration and assimilation, the rise of the AfD and neo-populism, and what Keir Starmer’s legacy tells us about the failure of technocratic politics to offer a compelling vision of the future. Then: is AI going to destroy humanity — or merely our jobs and our sanity? Could agentic AI military systems create their own escalatory feedback loops? And why might we need a kind of NATO for AI? Finally, we turn to Yemen, the Houthis and the Red Sea, before asking what the Fed’s surprise interest-rate hike tells us about the importance of independent institutions. Mega Orderers Bonus: Is Unregulated Capitalism Hacking Our Evolution?: Pls join the Mega Orderers Club for this unmissable treatment of topics like… Why does AI flatter us? And what do sycophantic chatbots, sugar, porn, gambling and neo-populist strongmen have in common? Jason and Jane explore evolutionary mismatch and ask whether we need a GLP-1 for our addiction to Disorder. Join the Mega Orderers Club: https://www.disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow SHOWNOTES LINKS George McDonagh’s Black Box: The Chatbots series for The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/audio/2026/sep/03/black-box-the-chatbots-spirals-ai-psychosis-podcast The Guardian on AI sycophancy: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jun/02/ai-sycophancy-risk-to-society-grasp-reality The Guardian on the Fed raising US interest rates: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2026/sep/16/us-federal-reserve-votes-hike-rates The Guardian on Yemen, the Houthis and the wider regional conflict: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/10/violence-erupts-in-yemen-again-why-it-matters-globally-and-how-it-is-linked-to-the-us-iran-war The Guardian on the latest anti-Houthi military developments: https://www.theguardian.com/wor...

Ep 208. General Ben Hodges: 25 years after 9/11 — can the West relearn strategy?

50 min

Twenty-five years after 9/11, did America respond to an attack on the Western Order by inadvertently helping to disorder that Order itself? Jason is joined by Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Ben Hodges, former Commanding General of U.S. Army Europe, to look back at 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and the collapse of NATO allies trust in the USA—and forward to how Ukraine can win and the defence of Europe. Hodges argues that military power is only useful when attached to a clear strategic objective and Congressional and popular buy-in: a lesson America repeatedly forgot after 9/11.  They then turn to Ukraine: drones, long-range strikes, manpower, democratic legitimacy and Europe's continuing failure to develop sufficient air and missile defence. In the Ordering the Disorder section, General Hodges argues that Europe should stop thinking about merely improving Ukraine's negotiating position and instead help it defeat Russia—while rebuilding the alliances and institutions that once magnified American power.  Join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club to get Jason's response to the interview, including his own reflections on 9/11 and whether power without clear objectives, functioning alliances and an idea of the Order it is seeking to create can itself become an engine of Disorder. SHOWNOTES LINKS Democrats v Dictators with Ben Hodges on his personal background: https://youtu.be/9eOKx6iVTx8?is=PJsO4AA9lfIk_5ru  Ben Hodges — Association of the United States Army: https://www.ausa.org/people/ben-hodges NATO — Collective Defence and Article 5: https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/collective-defence-and-article-5 Disorder — NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? with Jamie Shea, Kori Schake, Timothy Garton Ash and Charles Kupchan: https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/484e21562b7dcd1a1a1f570a09343fd68bf6e732/view Join the Mega Orderers Club: https://disordershow.com/club  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.co...

Ep 207. Is Europe's 80-Year Order Finally Collapsing?

29 min

A great power battle is emerging between Russia, China and Washington… and Europe teeters on the edge of all three. Could this break up the union? And is the European reliance on America over? To find out, Jason is joined by author and Director of the Moynihan Center of European Studies at Syracuse University, Glyn Morgan. His latest book The Rise and Fall of American Europe charts the rise and fall of the 80-year history of what he calls American Europe.  Jason and Glyn discuss how this system emerged off the back of Roosevelt's plans to dismantle both fascism and British imperial power, why it delivered decades of European prosperity, and why that’s now under threat. Plus: European complacency on defence, Macron's failed warnings, and - as they Order the Disorder - Glyn imagines a future where Europe works together for defense, with Britain’s role as a guardian of the Atlantic Sea.  To get an extended version of the episode, join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Shownotes: Get The Rise and Fall of American Europe by Glyn Morgan https://www.politybooks.com/bookdetail?book_slug=the-rise-and-fall-of-american-europe--9781509573202 For more on Glyn visit his Syracuse University faculty page https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/glyn-morgan For more on our partnership with the New Books Network https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 206. The Ancient Linguistic Order with Laura Spinney

57 min

This week, Jason is joined by one of his academic idols, Laura Spinney. Laura is a much-esteemed author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World, and her incredible newer book Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global. PROTO tells the story of how modern Indo-European languages came into being North of the Black Sea and then traveled East—the length of the steppe, north of the Caucasus, then into the Silk Roads and the Hindu Kush—and West—from the Hungarian steppe into the forest lands of Western Europe. In this episode, Jason and Laura discuss the Yamnaya nomads who spread these languages throughout the world; the central role of Ukraine in pre-history and its centrality now and in the future as a pivot of human civilization; and as they Order the Disorder: they discuss the need for an institution to preserve global memory, so that we as humans can avoid making the same mistakes of the past. To get the rest of the bonus content associated with this multi-part episode, i.e. a discussion about who are the Celts and Jason’s views on Proto and how ancient linguistic history can shed light on the demographic and climate change problems of today, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Get Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667  Listen - Laura Spinney: rise of the proto-Indo-Europeans https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296  For more on Laura visit https://www.lauraspinney.com/  For more on our partnership with the New Books Network - https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https:...

Ep 205. Arthur Snell Returns: Iran, Burnham, Bond Markets and Climate Disorder

56 min

This week Jason is joined by old friend and former Disorder co-host Arthur Snell, former British diplomat, host of Behind the Lines, and author of Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive It. Jason and Arthur start with the seemingly never-ending Iran war. Has Trump’s threatened “economic D-Day” achieved anything? Has it really even been implemented? Jason argues that Iran could become America’s Suez moment: not another Vietnam, but an debacle exposing the limits of American power and its inability to Order the world without its allies. They then turn to the U.S. midterms, whether the Democrats can retake Congress, and their continuing failure to articulate a coherent national message. And behind both American and British politics lurks another constraint: the bond market. With rising borrowing costs limiting what governments can actually do, could markets and independent institutions provide some of the feedback loops that politics increasingly lacks? Next up is Andy Burnham’s back-to-school moment. Can he rebuild Britain’s relationship with Europe, stand up to Trump and make better use of Britain’s considerable geopolitical leverage? Jason proposes an “elbows up rule”: medium powers confronting Trump need to articulate clear red lines and stick to them rather than succumbing to appeasement. Finally, Arthur draws on his book Elemental to explain how the devastating Nepal floods reveal a much bigger climate and geopolitical problem. Billions depend on water originating in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau, potentially intensifying tensions between China, India and Pakistan. Like Libya’s Derna disaster, it illustrates an Enduring Disorder: foreseeable risks that fragmented institutions repeatedly fail to prepare for. To Order the Disorder, Arthur calls for rebuilding British soft power through refunding the BBC World Service, British Council and universities, while Jason proposes a clear Burnham Doctrine on Britain’s place in the world....

Ep 204. Part 2: The Making of the Modern Middle East with Simon Sebag Montefiore

47 min

In this episode, we return to Simon Sebag Montefiore’s tour de force, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag divide the continuation of their discussion into two parts: 1) An analysis of what makes the Middle East a ‘Cauldron’ and what has the region’s role in 20th and 21st century global history been as an exporter of disorder or importer and then processor of the global disorder happening around it; 2) Our attempt to order the disorder with a lightening round where I ask Sebag impossibly big questions: first about big themes on civilization, religion, and history and then about how to fix the Middle East.    The crux of the episode is: What makes the Middle East unique as a region? Is it its geography, relation to religion, legacy of empires, connection to oil resources, or being the fulcrum where Asia, Europe, and Africa meet? Sebag thinks it is all of the above, Jason thinks it is its culture and lack of institutional legacy and public spiritedness.. he discussed this in the bonus bit for Mega Orderers.. They also delve into the role of Pakistan, America, Russia, and Britain in the Middle Eastern region and how part of the region’s uniqueness is how it sucks in other powers for ideological, religious, and oil reasons.      To get the bonus content associated with this two-part episode, i.e. Jason views on the role of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club    When you log in there after joining you will get Jason’s micro episode for members of the Mega-Orderers Club only on A CULTURAL CRITIQUE OF WHERE THE DISORDER of the Middle east COMES FROM—as he debate’s the establishment on the region’s uniquely dysfunctional culture and institutional legacies of greed of clan and faction and whether the Middle East is in fact unique or just like everywhere else when it comes to its a profound absence of public spiritedness.      Producer: George McDonagh   ...

Ep 203. The Making of the Modern Middle East--Part 1 with Simon Sebag Montefiore

46 min

This week, Jason is joined by esteemed British historian and author, Simon Sebag Montefiore, to discuss his latest book, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag’s discussion ranges over centuries of history and ping pongs back and forth on myriad topics. It tries to make the peripheral central by putting the non-Arab, non-Sunni groups at the centre of understanding the Modern Middle East. They unpack how the Middle East became the Disorderly region we know today and where to frame current conflicts historically to understand certain deeper dynamics, especially as pertains to minorities and their ambitions for statehood and peoplehood. They focus a lot on WWI and the dynamics that emerged from it and shaped the history of the Kurds, Armenians, Turks, and fleeing Ionian Greeks. These were the dynamics of population transfer and ethnonationalism that destroyed the old Middle East of the Millet System. They try to avoid the overdone Israel/Palestine dynamics which occasionally shed more heat than light. With this framing in place, they look at what tragedies took us to the current pointless and self-defeating Iran war, and where we might go from here. To get part 2 with bonus content, and hear it before anyone else, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To get Simon’s book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/  For more Disorder about the history of the Middle East, try: What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg  https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2 And Sir Vincent Fean The Case for Palestinian Statehood: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood  And the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day: ht...

Ep 202. The spy who duped me - Charles Cumming reveals all

1 hr 4 min

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder. Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order. In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels. The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Get in touch with Mark here https://www.mark-lobel.com/  For more on Out of Order visit https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel  ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88)https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 201. Rerun: Why Backgammon Can Help us Order the Disorder

53 min

To celebrate Jason's 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we're rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community. If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now. We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions? In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder.  They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026 For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www...

Ep 200. Is more devolution in Britain the answer or a spreader of Disorder?

59 min

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms? For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE  For Valeria’s art: https://backgammonbeauty.com/ You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&t=8414s Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&t=12807s Andy Burnham on How to Fail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w  For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 199. Rerun: NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder?

54 min

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it.  This episode explains why. If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now. Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems. In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/  For more on Jamie Shea, vis...

Ep 198. Tomorrow's Disorder — Florence Gaub on Our Flawed Relationship with the Future

32 min

This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future.    Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it.    Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems.    In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder.    Producer: Sam Cluley    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow    Show Notes Links:  Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/    Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College: https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/    Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight: https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub    Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war: https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html      For our collaboration with the Epstein Book C...

Ep 197. Re-Run: The Rise of the Neo-Populists

43 min

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period in which Disordering Neo-populists have come to power and have made the world more disorderly so they can stay in power. If you didn’t hear this when it came out on Sept 19, 2023--when we launched--I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now. Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power.  But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder? In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more from Anne Applebaum, visit https://linktr.ee/anneapplebaum    For more on Sean Wilentz, visit https://history.princeton.edu/people/sean-wilentz  For more on Jonathan Winer, visit https://www.mei.edu/profile/jonathan-m-winer  For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 196. Rule of Lies—the origin story of Putin’s Russia with Jamison Firestone

1 hr 7 min

This week, Jason is joined by a real life Mega-Orderer--Jamison Firestone, acclaimed lawyer, author, and activist. He witnessed firsthand Russia's descent from the promise of the Yeltsin years into the corruption and authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin's regime.Firestone was also the employer and close colleague of Sergei Magnitsky, whose death after exposing a massive tax fraud inspired the Magnitsky sanctions now used by democracies around the world to target corrupt officials and human rights abusers.Jamison joins Disorder to discuss his powerful new memoir, Rule of Lies, and to unpick piece by piece from his insider tales how Russia's descent into kleptocracy happened.Jason and Jamison also reflect on their mutual friend Sir Bill Browder, the legacy of the martyred Alexei Navalny, and why Navalny's extraordinary moral courage bears comparison with figures such as Socrates and even Jesus. As they Order the Disorder, they turn from diagnosis to solutions. Should the West finally confiscate the roughly $300 billion of frozen Russian state assets? Why has Belgium remained one of the principal obstacles? What can be done to make it give up the Goose that lays the Golden Egg? And could coordinated international action overcome the legal and political barriers? If democracies are serious about confronting authoritarianism, this conversation argues that defending the rule of law requires more than sanctions—it requires the courage to act. Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links:Jamison Firestone:https://jamisonfirestone.com/ Buy Rule of Lies:https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rule-of-lies-jamison-r-firestone Justice for Sergei Magnitsky:https://russian-untouchables.com/eng/Punish Putin campaign:https://punishputin.com/ Listen to our first Disorder episode with Sir Bill Browder:https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8e...

Ep 195. Trump, Iran, and the Epstein Files

34 min

In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason updates on the for-ever war in Iran and the Straight of Hormuz and how the disorder we are experiencing over there is conceptually connected to the bigger concepts of the Disorder pod: the Global Enduring Disorder and the rise of the Neopopulists. He does this via a conversation on the Disinformation Detox with Nolan Higdon, which we air with our own intro.    Producer: Sam Cluely    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow    Show Notes Links:    The U.S. and Iran standoff over the Strait of Hormuz intensifies https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates     Disorder is through to the next judging round for the News, Politics & Current Affairs category of the British Podcast Awards. You can see the full longlist here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026       Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting     Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0       Subscribe to the Disinfo Detox: https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox    Subscribe to Gaslight Gazette: ⁠https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com⁠     Learn more at: ⁠https://www.NolanHigdon.com  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 194. Farage vs Count Binface, reflections on the NATO Summit and America

52 min

Fresh from her trip to Ankara for the NATO Summit, Jane rejoins Jason to discuss what she learned about NATO, the mood among the allies, and why the Europeans are moving further away from Trump. Plus: Farage’s resignation and by-election, how that is connected to the Marine Le Pen court ruling in France, and then to Order the Disorder: Jason argues that we should look no further than the America’s Founding Fathers and the principles they articulated and lived by. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting  Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0  Listen to our episode with Frank Vogl - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh  Listen to Amb. Minuto-Rizzo about the NATO summit: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv    On Farage and British dislike of political sleaze - https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 193. America’s 250th and a Reformed drug smuggler on how to tackle the narcotics industry and Epstein

47 min

We start the episode with Jason’s reflections on the July 4th holiday and America’s Big Birthday. For more on this check out the first YouTube below in the Links. He believes that our Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers and men of tremendous principle who trusted experts. Therefore, to celebrate the holiday, he wanted to have someone on the pod who has lived his life courageously, respectfully, and with principle. Therefore, this week, Jason is joined by Dr Hal Bradley, reformed drug smuggler, former informant for the FBI, and author of more than 10 books. Dr Hal and Jason discuss his life story, his take on the Epstein files, and how understanding and co-operation can help us Order the Disorder.  Hal showcases his revolutionary and principled life and his conversion story. He also explains how despite Trump’s big bluster about tackling drug smuggling across the border, little has been done. So what does a former drug smuggler think should be done to truly Order this Disorder? Listen to find out. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Watch Jason explain how The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers:  https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0  Watch/listen to Jason with Dr Alon Ben Meir talking about the situation in Iran and the status of the MoU and regional ceasefires as at the end of June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL5UNy6Ruc&list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI  Watch Jason on Dr Hal’s show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs  Get Dr Hal’s book, A Fox In the Lion's Den: A Fictionalized and Fact-Based Autobiography of the Life of Dr. Hal A. Bradley, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-...

Ep 192. Who is funding the Houthis?

30 min

In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Peter Salisbury, Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University, and Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, who has spent years tracking the illicit supply chains fuelling the war in Yemen. His upcoming report, launching at King's College London, is essential reading for anyone trying to understand how the Houthis went from a little-known insurgent group to a force capable of disrupting global shipping. Jane and Peter discuss how the Houthis learned to manufacture their own drones and missiles rather than simply receiving them from Iran, the outsized role China now plays in supplying the components that power this new generation of weapons, the fragile Saudi-Houthi truce since 2022, and what the changing economics of drone warfare mean for the future of arms control. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: The report that Pete is talking about can be found here: https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 191. Why Can’t Western governments get anything done? What do we do about trillionaires? Is the US missing out on the World Cup dividend?

51 min

This week it’s time for listener questions! And pls note that members of the Mega Orderer’s club get their questions answered first. Jane and Jason discuss: why Russia is pretending to be happy with Starmer resigning, the potential role of Turkey, Saudi, Pakistan and Egypt in Ordering the Strait of Hormuz, Elon Musk becoming the world’s first trillionaire, whether Iran and America will ever agree on anything, the US’ behaviour throughout the World Cup, and why western governments seemingly can’t get anything done and what happened to bold elected centrist leaders. For ad free listening, early release episodes and in future, full episodes of our listener questions and the unlimited right to get your questions answered, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Read: Big Tech is stoking unrest in the UK. Why? https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1  Listen to Keen On: The Trouble with Trillionaires: Mordecai Kurz on Capitalism, Democracy, and the Second Gilded Age: https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 190. An Orderly British transition is underway and the upcoming NATO summit in Ankara

53 min

Don’t you just love when decency interjects and sometimes people do the right thing, the orderly thing, the sane thing? Well voters of Makerfield have chosen order and unity over disorder and division, and now Starmer has done the right thing. The Orderly Transition to Burnham is on its way and it is an example of a prime opportunity for the institutions of Britain to showcase themselves to the domestic and international publics as orderly and functional.  So Jason starts by introducing this existing moment and then pivoting to regularly scheduled programming about international ordering that still works: NATO. With the NATO Summit in Ankara fast approaching, will the fractures between Europe and America be on full display? Or will one of the world’s most successful alliances in human history come together and make a show of unity? To preview the summit and survey global affairs from peacemaking to defence spending, Jason is joined by Ambassador Alessandro Minuto-Rizzo, the President of the NATO Defense College Foundation and former Deputy Secretary General of NATO (2001-8). The duo discuss what will come out of the Ankara communique, the future of Italian politics, and as they Order the Disorder - the role of NATO in the years to come. Ambassador Minuto-Rizzo puts forth his solutions to the Ukraine war, various ideas why giving up territory might not be that important these days, and his overall philosophy of optimism and keeping calm and carrying on. It might not be how everyone would look at global affairs, but it is very interesting that a man with five decades of high level diplomatic experience has this approach.  Hope you enjoy. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more on the work of the Foundatio...

Ep 189. The Armenian election and the Disorderly Caucasus

33 min

In this episode of Disorder Latest, Jason is joined by Thomas de Waal, journalist, author, and Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe who has spent decades studying the politics, conflicts, and societies of the Caucasus and wider Eurasian region. His book ‘The Caucasus: An Introduction’, is a must read for anyone looking to understand the region—its ethnic diversity, its ties to Russia, its cults of personality, and its geopolitical importance. Jason and Thomas discuss the  June 7 Armenian election—won by pro-EU incumbent Nikol Pashinyan--, the Trump negotiated peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and whether Georgia is moving permanently away from Europe and the West. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at ⁠disordershow.com/club⁠ Producer: Sam Cluely Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Get Thomas’ book at ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773⁠  Listen to our previous episodes with Armen Sarkissian, Armenia’s former president ⁠https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx⁠  And for more on the Armenian election: ⁠https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9⁠  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 188. Disorder LIVE @ UNA-UK: The Disunited Kingdom, the disordered dynamics of U.S.-Iran talks, and how Hormuz affects Nigerian politics

59 min

For a special live edition of Disorder, we come to you live from the United Nations Association – UK, where Jason, Jane and Mark were  joined by a special guest-- Alexis Akwagyiram, Managing Editor for Africa at Semafor. Mark and Jason discussed the latest disorder in the UK and if Andy Burnham might be able to bring Order to Britain? But will he even be able to order its bond markets? Jane and Jason look at the reigniting of fighting between Israel and Iran, and what happens next, and Alexis and Jane discussed the fallout from the disorderly war on inflation and food prices in Africa and provide the latest on Nigeria and the role of African countries in restoring some global order. For a full, unedited edition of the episode with full q and a, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For full list of Makerfield Election candidates visit https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/  Watch Wes Streeting on News Agents https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 187. Iran War restarted? And Is Latin America moving to the right?

32 min

Over the weekend Iran launched waves of missiles at Israel, while Israel retaliated against military targets and a petrochemical complex in Iran, as an uneasy two-month truce appeared to break down. Trump had earlier appeared keen to avoid an escalation, telling Bibi not to respond to the first barrage of Iranian missiles. Under the surface, Israel wants to complete the job in Lebanon, but Trump wants all the wars over so he can cover up his failure. We start the ep by Jason explaining these late-breaking developments and then introducing the electoral fight between neo-populism and progressivism in one of Latin America’s most geopolitically important countries. As we pivot to the feature topic, we ask what is going on in Colombia's presidential election and will it jeopardise the country's peace agreement which former Disorder guest Jonathan Powell helped negotiate many moons ago? Might we see multiple Latin American countries moving to the neo-populism right helped by Trump - including the return of the Bolsonaro family in Brazil? What are the interests that the Trump administration is pursuing in Latin America? Is it mostly just about critical minerals or is it more of a shared worldview? And how can people in the continent pursue democracy and rights when the US and China are competing to get hold of their critical minerals?  This week Jane meets distinguished human rights lawyer Viviana Krsticevic, executive director of the Center for Justice and International Law, founder of GQual and member of the UN’s independent fact-finding mission on human rights in Iran. They discuss how Vivi's childhood in Argentina under the military junta left her with a determination to fight for democracy, gender equality and human rights after seeing the costs of authoritarianism firsthand, and they discuss strategies for advancing freedom and justice despite the current age of political disorder and democratic backsliding. In the Ordering the Disorder segment they discuss, Lati...

Ep 186. How to oust Netanyahu, and give the UAE tough love

1 hr 0 min

It is our favourite time of the month, listeners questions! This week Jason and Jane take listener questions around topics including: Will Netanyahu be ousted in this year’s elections? Have the Israeli anti-Bibi bloc learned the lessons of Hungary before the next parliamentary elections? Can Reform UK be trusted to do what they say they will? Is a constantly changing leader now the norm in UK politics? Does Trump’s trip to China change anything? And what’s the Disordering role of the UAE in global politics? And should the West give the UAE a tough love approach to help them play the role of global citizen better? To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey  Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Pls find out about the 8 June 530pm in Westminster live podcast event and join the Mega Orderers club or Pay for Substack here to attend here: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-live-podcast-at-un-association  To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events like the 8 June 530pm Westminster event, visit disordershow.com/club Jane’s recommended The Economist Bagehot column on whether Britain is ungovernable https://www.economist.com/britain/2026/04/22/sir-keir-starmer-cannot-govern-he-has-only-himself-to-blame  Read Will Self’s new column on Starmer as mentioned by Jane https://x.com/wself/status/2054946706723160363  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 185. Is Ukraine Winning? And how has the Iran war reshaped the Middle East? With David Tafuri

49 min

The crises across our disordered world are more interconnected than ever. As states pursue their own self-interest, genuine collective action for mutual shared benefit seems further away than ever before. How can we ever hope to Order this Disorder? To try, Jason is joined this week by his old friend David Tafuri. David previously served as the US Department of State’s Rule of Law Coordinator for Iraq, was an outside foreign policy advisor to President Obama’s campaign in 2008, has worked for the United Nations in Turkey, and is the founder and current President of the US-Kurdistan Business Council. The pair start with the latest in Ukraine--following up on David’s recent visit there. Then they embark on a whistle stop tour of the Middle East, exploring the latest in Iraq, Syria, Israel, and Lebanon. And… as they Order the Disorder, the discuss the situation in the Gulf, how the Gulfis and European Allies could help open Hormuz, the need to tackle misinformation, and why the Trump admin needs to put aside its destructive unilateralism and work more closely with traditional American allies on Ukraine and the Iran war. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey  Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Watch more on David’s attempts to address misinformation in Ukraine:  https://youtube.com/shorts/TWRqQNojKvg?si=dRu81hERC5-HYGNz More on David’s career here: https://www.afslaw.com/attorneys/david-tafuri  Plus his reporting from Ukraine’s frontline: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYX_0c8kTjl/?igsh=eTY2dHh4Zm44eTJp  Advertising Inquirie...

Ep 184. How Ryan Cornelius Was Trapped in Dubai Jail With Chris Pagett

30 min

Today marks the 18th anniversary of the arrest of Ryan Cornelius, a British businessman stuck in jail on dubious charges over a real estate development project gone awry. And yet… the UK Government is doing nothing substantive to get his release, too scared to pressure a close ally. Does this episode showcase a key aspect of the Enduring Disorder: medium power democracies are too scared to pressure their wealthy allies to abide by the rule of law? Originally sentenced to 10 years for a ‘crime’ -- that the first Emirati judge that saw the case declared was unsubstantiated -- he remains still detained after his initially unproved sentence was extended by a further 20 years. The UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has found his detention to be arbitrary, and his family has spent years campaigning for the UK and UAE authorities to secure his release.  To find out more about this case and what it reveals about international relations, Jason is joined by Chris Pagett, Ryan’s brother-in-law. This is the first in our ever-other Thursday Disorder Latest series. Chris and Jason discuss what the UK Government should (and has so far failed to) do, the ways that automatic sanctions could order the disorder, and why cases like this spread in our era of Enduring Disorder and in turn spread yet further Disorder. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey  Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Read: MPs call for sanctions over British man detained in Dubai for 17 years https://www.irishnews.com/news/uk/mps-call-for-sanctions-over-british-man-d...

Ep 183. Trump Visits China, the world order is broken - With Leslie Vinjamuri

32 min

This week on Disorder, in a slight break from the Mayhem in the UK over the possible Leadership challenge to Starmer, Jane catches up with the President and CEO of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs and host of the Deep Dish podcast, Leslie Vinjamuri. Leslie and Jane used to work together at Chatham House. They start by discussing Leslie’s final project for Chatham House where she worked with a host of experts to analyse how rising powers, middle powers and US adversaries see the international order as well as new possible ideas of global Order.  Surprise, surprise mega-orderers, the conversation proves the depressing result that we already know! -- i.e. that there are no serious alternative visions of order that are emerging and no non-neo-populists are putting forth compressive visions of global order. Will the continuance of the Enduring Disorder therefore be the hallmark of our times? Probably yes :- On a brighter note, Leslie thinks the US will revert to a more “normal” politics in Trump’s wake. Jane is not so sure: she and Leslie discuss why the UK hasn’t been able to “get back to normal” under Keir Starmer and how the breakdown of the political centre is making it harder and harder to address the long-term economic issues that underpin Britain’s current malaise.  This week we also delve into Trump’s trip to China; the role of Europeans in enabling China, and how different camps in Washington are looking at the China trip - with think-tankers pretty skeptical that it will make any difference, while business leaders are eager to join the trip to what is, after all, the world’s second biggest market for most of them. No matter what happens there we must ask is Europe working with or against the US’s China policy? And will any coherent transatlantic order emerge out of a re-alignment over China? To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more abou...

Ep 182. Reform win big in England: are they Disorderers or Orderers? with Alan Mendoza

57 min

In the May 7, 2026 UK elections, Reform won biggly. They did so well that they even stole the show from the ascendent Celtic nationalists in the periphery. Gaining thousands of councillors in England, becoming the second largest party in Wales and the joint second biggest in Scotland. Meanwhile, in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland the biggest parties (Plaid Cymru, SNP, and Sinn Fein) are all separatists. This has ushered in disorderly ‘five party politics’ in England and a real threat to the union emanating from a Celtic periphery led by parties that wish to break up the UK.  On this special episode of Disorder we ask: does the UK have a future at all anymore? Will it be very disorderly? And what are Reform’s actual policies? To find out – and in our attempt to present a range of views on Disorder – Jason and Mark are joined by Alan Mendoza, Chief Advisor on Global Affairs to Reform UK. The duo push Alan to clarify Reform’s actual policies around local government, migration, and Reform’s attitudes to Brexit. Jason sees Reform as Disorders, but Alan makes a full throated and quite eloquent case as to why he sees Reform as Orderers rather than Disorderers.  Hopefully the debate is podcasting at its best, filled with respectful disagreements that elucidate the underlying differences in world views. Either way, Reform UK is here to stay so we might as well understand them. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey  Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club How the winner-takes-all voting system has turned on Labour and the Tories: h...

Ep 181. Corrupted: The entrapment of Former Prince Andrew, with Andrew Lownie

54 min

Something smells royally fishy. The stench has been detected wafting from Sandringham all the way to Balmoral. The scandals around Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew have showcased that the rich and powerful have been operating beyond the law and that royal sinecures have been used to obscure the provenance of ill-gotten gains. Consider: In America, you make your money. But in Britain, you can use it for access. If the Epstein affair has shown us anything, it’s that a royal seal of approval is infinitely valuable. Friendship with a top working Royal takes one from the shady jet set into the global elite establishment. And if you can buy a royal seal of approval - like Epstein did with former Prince Andrew -- you get the keys to some of the most influential people in the world. To discuss Epstein’s relationship with Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell and Sarah Ferguson, Jason is joined this week by Andrew Lownie, author of the Sunday Times number 1 Best Selling book, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York. The pair look at what made Andrew’s personality so easily corruptible, how Andrew’s narcissism and megalomania were fueled, the role of Royal Reputation Washing across the globe, and why there could be more nasty revelations about what the royals have been up yet to come. Plus, as they Order the Disorder, they discuss making the royal family more accountable, transparent, and better at serving the British people. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club⁠ To tell us more about Disorder, visit ⁠disordershow.com/survey⁠  For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: ⁠https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder⁠  Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad f...

Ep 180. Is the Iran War on or off? Is Hormuz open or closed? Is Orban’s fall the end of neo-populism?

51 min

This week’s episode was recorded before the Trump Assassination attempt at the White House Correspondents dinner, but Jason inserted a late breaking addition to reference it at the start. In the regularly scheduled programming, Jane and Jason take a range of listener questions on topics like: Is the Iran War on or off? Does the downfall of Victor Orban mean a turn away from neo-populism and authoritarianism? Are Starmer’s incremental moves towards the EU Mega Ordering or not? Will he be forced out of office on May 8? And will the dynamics of the Iran war and higher oil prices change things between Ukraine and Russia? And what is Israeli ‘hasbarah’=public diplomacy and does it fuel antisemitism? And as they Order the Disorder, the duo experiment with a quick fire round where they discuss: What might actually happen on US-Iran negotiations, Trump’s tanking approval ratings, his constant firing of staff, Virginia Redistricting, and what that means for this year’s Congressional midterms. To tell us more about Disorder win a chance for money, visit disordershow.com/survey Write us to get your question answered at Disordershow@gmail.com Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases, exclusive access to live events AND A GUARENTEE WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, visit disordershow.com/club Watch Jane’s Iran series here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsRO_Izf4VcJkN3vlpbFdTYnx0lpZyPus Listen to Jason on The Bunker discuss Orban’s defeat and its implications for US and EU politics here https://podcasts.apple.com/in/podcast/populism-will-eat-itself-how-orb%C3%A1ns-defeat-changes-the-game/id1496246490?i=1000761547591&l=ml Listen to Jason on BBC Scotland talk about the Assassination attempt on Trump at the WHCA: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002vm42 Watch Jason...

Ep 179. What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg

48 min

Over the last week, a spate of Jewish communal targets have been attacked in North London. According to its founder Theodore Herzl, Zionism was supposed to normalize the position of Jews in the world. Has Zionism failed or is a new consensus form of Zionism still the answer to these outbursts of Disorderly Antisemitism? In 2026, April 21 is Israel’s Independence Day. These are tough times for the Jewish State in international public opinion. By all accounts it has made mistakes, violated international law, committed war crimes. But it has also been defending itself against an unprecedented multipronged assault.  Other states don’t risk losing their international legitimacy because they have bad or immoral leadership. Support among Americans and Europeans for Israel is down and even young diasporic Jews report increasingly negative appraisals of Israel.  To investigate the situation in the Middle East, the position of Jews in Britain, and the rise of anti-semitic attacks on Britain’s Jewish community, I am joined by returning Champion Phil Rosenberg. He is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.  Phil is a former Labour councilor for West Hampstead and previously Director of the Faiths Forum for London. In today’s episode, we wish to use this commemorative day to look at a few deeper questions:  How is Antisemitism surging globally and why? How does  Antisemitism manifest itself in the UK and Australia and how it is fascinating how differently it portrays from anti-Americanism? What is Zionism? Is it relevant in today’s world? Is it part of an orderly world or is it a Disordering ideal? What is the Role of international entities and Diasporic Jews in supporting Israel’s right to defend itself while criticizing certain policies?  To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey  Producer: Georg...

Ep 178. Elemental: The Geopolitics of Climate Change with Arthur Snell

55 min

The Chinese are cleaning our clock when it comes to lithium batteries and EVs, while the Russians still dominate at nuclear energy? Why? Why can’t the West play the geopolitics of climate change better? Why can’t Western countries work together to prepare for, mitigate, and profit from the upcoming cataclysm? Why are we sleepwalking off the cliff?  To find out, we return to friend of the show and former Co-host Arthur Snell returns to Disorder to explore the themes of his new book, Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive it. The overall approach of the book showcases how the Enduring Disorder paradigm epitomizes the collective action challenges democracies face as they compete against each other and see-saw from one policy to another while dictatorships tend to think much more long term when it comes to how to prepare for the opportunities and challenges of climate change. This investigation comes at a highly relevant time as the Iran War has made clear how the geopolitics of energy, electricity, AI Data centres, critical minerals, and climate change are the top table issues of our day. Arthur and Jason start off talking about the situation in the Straight of Hormuz and how developments there will affect the energy transition. They quickly pivot to a discussion of the geopolitics of the Arctic and Antarctic, especially the scramble for the Northwest Passage.   Jason points out that China has been strategic about how to benefit from climate change, while Western nations have only notched tactical successes, but have not systematically prepared for the top table challenges that climate changes poses for humanity. As they Order the Disorder, Arthur explores who the approach of Antarctic of international legal treaties could be expanded to other domains and how we could international, socialize, and demilitarize the geopolitics of climate change. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive acc...

Ep 177. Iran War: Could Europe play Orderers? Or will China fill the void?

59 min

As the Iran conflict enters its sixth week and Trump’s ultimatum is upon us, what is Trump’s real plan here? Is it merely to Disorder, or is he genuinely seeking to negotiate his way out of this conflict? To discuss the latest, including the role of Europe and whether the Strait of Hormuz can be theoretically and practically opened by military force, Jason is joined by Michael Stephens, senior fellow at Global Nation and an associate fellow at RUSI. He ran to be an MP for the Tories in Putney; he speaks Hebrew and Arabic; and has decades of expertise in the Gulf States, Syria, and inside the UK government. Michael and Jason discuss the theological background to the Islamic Republic’s ideology, the positive role Britain can play, whether the mere existence of this conflict helps the Chinese exert more power globally, and what the Europeans could do to Order the Disorder if they wanted to. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Listen and watch Jason explain ‘How will the Iran war reshape global supply chains?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZyAP5tFXo Listen and watch Jason explain, ‘Why did Trump fire Pam Bondi?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8jarTtdFI Want to learn more about Shi’i Islam and how it informs the Islamic Republic’s decision making, read Moojan Momen’s brilliant An Introduction to Shi’i Islam: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Shii-Islam-History-Doctrines/dp/0300034997 To listen to our previous inte...

Ep 176. What’s next in Iran? Is NATO Doomed? And how do we tackle global inequality?

49 min

This week, Mark Lobel and Jane Kinninmont take listener questions on topics including: the future of Iran and the Iranian people, the decline of Britain’s naval power, whether NATO can survive Trump’s ongoing attacked, what role the Enduring Disorder played in causing Brexit, and how to solve global inequality. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Give feedback on Disorder here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/CX7JB3W  You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch  Chatham House Prize | Chatham House – International Affairs Think Tank https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/03/sudans-volunteer-led-aid-network-receives-2025-chatham-house-prize   Donate to the Emergency Response Rooms - Donate | Support Sudan's Emergency Response Rooms — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION - https://www.mutualaidsudan.org/donate  Article that makes the case for the Iran war - https://apple.news/Ac9j4I-MHSFuj6tgL1zCiUA  Senate foreign relations committee on the folly of waiving sanctions on Iran’s oil - https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/shaheen-schumer-reedwarner-warren-statementon-trump-administrationdecision-to-ease-iran-oil-sanctions  The Times on European leaders considering a scenario where the U.S. makes a deal with Russia and turns its back on Europe - https://apple.news/A-NCiRk_2QVCXwWoStWlppg  U.K. Parliament’s Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy says U.K. must plan for a transition to greater European leadership of NATO - http...

Ep 175. How should we use peacekeepers in a world of conflict?

27 min

The world is steeped in conflict. From Ukraine to the Middle East to Sudan, so what role do UN Peacekeepers play in a world with little peace? And what role can they play To discuss, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Jean-Pierre Lacroix, the Under-Secretary-General for Peace Operations. They discuss the current role of UN peacekeepers, what they can and cannot do, and how they can find a role in a world where fewer peace agreements are being made. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Read more on UN Peacekeeping here: https://www.visionofhumanity.org/un-at-80-why-it-needs-to-reinvigorate-peacekeeping/  Read more on why UN Peacekeeping works here:  https://cic.nyu.edu/resources/conflict-and-violence-prevention-works-how-do-we-sell-it-politically/  Jane adds: The Institute for Economics and Peace has highlighted the long-term downward trend in funding for peacekeeping and peacebuilding around the world:  “Between 2008 to 2024, peacekeeping and peacebuilding funding declined by 26 per cent, with peacebuilding falling 39 per cent (from $8.7 billion to $5.3 billion) and peacekeeping down to $5.8 billion” As a result, “Despite a nearly unchanged number of missions over the past two decades (60 in 2008 vs 61 in 2024), the number of deployed peacekeeping personnel has halved – from 187,586 to 94,451 – largely due to funding shortfalls.” Meanwhile the same institute estimates in its 2025 Global Peace Index that “The economic impact of violence is now US$19.97 trillion, or 11.6 per cent of global GDP, driven by rising military spending and conflict-related losses.” In 2026, those costs are going to be way higher because of the enormous damage already being done to energy infrastructur...

Ep 174.  Could Trump’s Iran War tank the global economy?

57 min

The Iran war rages on, oil prices continues to surge, and inflation spikes. When will we be in a global recession? Do we see stagflation coming back? Can military action open and secure the Strait of Hormuz? Or is that also a Chimera? Are the Disorderers doing this all on purpose do they benefit from all this Disorder? This week, Jason Pack and Mark Lobel discuss the big picture economic problems of the Iran war, including: America’s doomed insurance and military proposals to get oil moving through the Strait of Hormuz again, the collosal impact of continued closure on the global economy; the situation on America’s and Britain’s relationships with their Gulf allies; what rising oil prices and swelling Russian coffers means for Russia’s war on Ukraine; why China could be a surprise Orderer in this (if they chose to play the part); Starmer’s triangulating response to this crisis; and – as they Order the Disorder – the role Britain and Europe could play in mediating this conflict. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Listen: OIES Podcast – The US-Israeli War with Iran: Continuing Impacts on Oil Markets  https://open.spotify.com/episode/2kLZsWi4x8d6LU7d1le91J?si=0tVfxYmdRRS7QYx7GhZNbQ&ct=1&t=1  Nations Respond With Caution to Trump’s Call to Send Warships to Strait of Hormuz: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/15/world/middleeast/trump-strait-of-hormuz-iran-warships.html  Is Trump having another Taj Mahal moment on our YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V6HTwiNG_Ck To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/br...

Ep 173. What is Strategy? And how do we stop democracies backsliding into autocracy?

29 min

Well, the quagmire has set in. The Iran war is in its second week and Oil Prices are above $100 a barrel and even though it was clear from the first shots being fired it is now manifest that Trump has no strategy. And his ability to act with impunity shows that constraining leaders to act with strategy rather than just opportunism is a key aspect of democracy and accountability. We are trying to focus on solutions, to see what is working in Britain, and to chat through various amorphous topics, such as: ‘What is Strategy?’ and why does democracy have a communications problem. In 2011, statistics show that 11 democracies suffered backsliding into autocracy. Today: that number is in the mid-40s. With Trump’s America at the peak of that shift, what can be done to reverse that trend? And better yet, what can be done to protect all democracies going forward? Can institutions be made in advance that could protect democratic backsliding before it happens?!? To build on our recent episode with Graham Zellick on how democracy is protected in the UK, Jason is joined by Richard Symons. Richard is the founder of Compass & Co —a UK-based strategy and communications firm helping leaders with policy, corporate strategy, and clear messaging in complex environments.  They discuss the pressing issue of democratic backsliding, what it means, what causes it, some innovative solutions being proposed, including in Wales, and as they Order the Disorder, they look at the need for a ‘right to facts’ type law, and why bold leadership is needed to maintain democracy. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more on compass and Co https://www.compass-strat.com/  Read: The Revenge of Power: How Autocra...

Ep 172. Looking beyond the headlines of the Iran War; do the arrests of Mandelson and Andrew show the UK justice system works?

1 hr 4 min

It is a crazy week for the Middle East and the World. For those wanting the Iran War content mentioned at the episode start where Jason appeared on three different podcasts addressing various aspects of the conflict (its congressional illegality; the parallels with the No Fly Zone over Libya; and the Epstein distraction aspects) please consult those links in the shownotes, we think those podcasts are awesome. But back to the matter at hand, Trump certainly knows how to dominate the news cycle but mostly he does so via means that illegal and impeachable in the United States. Why then are the powerful able to be held to account in the UK (e.g. Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew) but not in the USA?  No one is above the law in Britain. TRULY. Not the Lords, not the Princes of the realm. And Parliamentarians don’t decide who is prosecuted and the Government can’t protect its friends. And this analysis isn’t BS. It is literally vouched for by the people who have designed and operated the current legal system. With the arrest of Lord Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, Britons can TRULY say that their legal system does actually seriously investigate powerful people who have done something wrong and that the system is beyond partisan influence.  What makes the British legal system work? And what are its vulnerabilities? Is it more fragile than we realise? Today, Jason Pack is joined by Professor Graham Zellick, a distinguished public and constitutional lawyer, university leader and judge, to explore the UK’s rather remarkable constitution (or lack of). They look at the independence of bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service; how and why they are beyond political interference; and whether they need to be protected from a potential future Neo-populist leader. And as they Order the Disorder, they debate whether these bodies need to be strengthened yet further, or if Farage or an equivalent could dismantle them as quickly as Trump has done in the US. They exp...

Ep 171. The Wars of Epic Epstein Distraction: RIP Dictator Khamanei

1 hr 1 min

Trump is clearly bored of peace.  So bored. Shortly before the United States and Israel were poised to launch an attack on Iran later in the week, Israeli and American intelligence spotted, on Saturday morning local time, that the entire Iranian leadership including the Supreme Leader Ali Khamanei (and likely his son Mojtaba) as well as key IRGC commanders were going to meet to discuss the ongoing negotiations strategy in central Tehran. Hence, The United States and Israel therefore decided to adjust the timing of their planned attack and decapitate most of the country’s leadership. So now, the entire Middle East is at war, Trump has practiced another regime decapitation operation without Congressional approval and Iran has rained down missiles across the Sunni Gulf and Israel killing civilians and targeting key infrastructure like airports and tourist hotels.  Jane and Jason ask why, when and how? Is this whole thing just a disorderly distraction from Trump’s appearance in the Epstein files and his desire to give Pam Bondi cover for her ongoing coverup? Jason thinks that is the primary motivation. Jane and Jason agree that Trump is unlikely to have an end game and that regime change has never worked solely via airpower and that even with a popular uprising that may now emerge, the situation could resemble Libya, which hasn’t exactly had the greatest track record since Western airpower helped a popular uprising oust Qadhafi. As Jane and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they talk about solutions and where Europe, the UN, and regional allies could try to steer the region towards a more peaceful outcome. Critically, they discuss the issue of the lack of depth (i.e. America and Israel running out of missile interceptors) and how the political and military realms may interact to provide solutions and offramps, especially if the Gulfis and Europeans mediate. Time to head to the Omani Embassy in Geneva… that is my favourite place to be. To join our Mega Orderers Club f...

Ep 170. Why the Mainstream media is partially to blame for Epstein coverup - Jason Pack on KeenOn

44 min

For this bonus episode, we invite the orderers to hear a lightly-edited recording of Jason Pack appearing on our sister pod, KeenOn America, where Andrew and Jason discuss Jason’s belief that there was a genuine cover-up by Anglo-American media and the US and UK governments of the Jeffrey Epstein case—not orchestrated by the CIA, but by prosecutors who didn’t want to go after powerful people, journalists who didn’t want to go against an oligarch who could sue them for libel, and a system where orders of magnitudes too much wealth has accrued to too narrow a sliver of global elites. So despite being anti-conspiratorial, Jason concludes that the cover up and the conspiracy were real. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more on KeenOn go to https://www.keenon.tv/episodes/  To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ Podcasts mentioned: Disorder Episode 167 — "Epstein Survivor Rina Oh on Getting Justice: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/MThlZTFkZjgtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWJkMWMtOGY0YjYzYzZiZGYw  Disorder Episode 168 — "How Can Epstein's Victims Get Closure? with Civil Rights Attorney Lisa Bloom: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/M2M2NThlNjAtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWExOWItMDcxODNmNmQ5OTky  Bobby Capucci's "Jeffrey Epstein: The Cover-Up Chronicles" — deep dives into the Epstein files: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jeffrey-Epstein-The-Coverup-Chronicles/dp/B0DZPKRYFG  Jewish Currents — left-wing Jewish treatment of Epstein's connections to Ehud Barak and the Mossad: https://jewishcurrents.org/on-jeffrey-epstein  Peter Bale interview (Episode 2813) — discussed the Epstein media cover-u...

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