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The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Administrative State

Gray Matters

A Government podcast

#123 in Government · 🇮🇪
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About the show

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Administrative State, at George Mason University’s Antonin Scalia Law School, supports research and debate on the modern administrative state, and the constitutional issues surrounding it. In this podcast, we’ll discuss some of the questions being debated around modern administration — some new questions, some timeless ones. And you can also get the audio from Gray Center events.

Newest episodes

Judge Glock on What DOGE Achieved

49 min

Judge Glock, director of research at the Manhattan Institute, discussed his new article about what DOGE achieved with Jace Lington. Glock argued that if you set aside the inflated rhetoric about cost savings, DOGE actually made significant cuts to the size of the federal workforce. They talk about civil service reform, USAID and IRS debates, and which reforms could endure, while distinguishing measurable operational effects from policy disagreements.  Show notes:  YouTube versionDOGE Achieved More Than You Think, Judge GlockThe Origins of the Novice Administrative State, Judge GlockReflections on Civil Service Reform, Ronald A. CassFrom Merit to Expertise and Back: The Evolution of the U.S. Civil Service System, Joseph Postell

Rupert Darwall on The Age of Error and the West's Undoing

1 hr 13 min

Jace Lington speaks with Rupert Darwall about his new book, The Age of Error and the West's Undoing. In the book, Darwall argues that Western leaders doubled down on policies to fight climate change after the 2008 financial crisis, which led to a clash between environmentalism and geopolitics. He also makes the case that politicians became codependent on experts (central bankers, climate scientists, and public health officials) in ways that undermine democratic accountability and lead to worse policy outcomes. Show notes:  YouTube versionRupert's Book Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here

Suncor, Energy Policy, and the Future of Federalism (Notice & Comment May 2026 Conference Keynote Panel)

35 min

In the keynote panel from the Gray Center's May conference, moderator Adam White (Gray Center, AEI) speaks with Michael Williams (West Virginia Solicitor General) and Matt Leopold (Holland & Knight and former EPA General Counsel) about federal energy and environmental regulation, focusing on the Supreme Court’s pending Suncor v. City of Boulder case and broader post-Chevron litigation dynamics. The case concerns whether state tort law can be used to impose liability for climate change damages and effectively regulate interstate emissions, raising preemption and territorial-jurisdiction concerns. The discussion covers potential federal common law and Clean Air Act preemption, limits on extraterritorial regulation, and skepticism of Dormant Commerce Clause arguments. They connect these issues to the EPA’s current deregulatory efforts, the end of Chevron deference after Loper Bright, and questions about Mass. v. EPA. Show notes:  YouTube version2024 Gray Center webinar on Federal Preemption and Environmental Regulation2024 Gray Matters Episode about the Role of State Tort Law in the World of Climate Lawsuits and Federalism

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All episodes

Judge Glock on What DOGE Achieved

49 min

Judge Glock, director of research at the Manhattan Institute, discussed his new article about what DOGE achieved with Jace Lington. Glock argued that if you set aside the inflated rhetoric about cost savings, DOGE actually made significant cuts to the size of the federal workforce. They talk about civil service reform, USAID and IRS debates, and which reforms could endure, while distinguishing measurable operational effects from policy disagreements.  Show notes:  YouTube versionDOGE Achieved More Than You Think, Judge GlockThe Origins of the Novice Administrative State, Judge GlockReflections on Civil Service Reform, Ronald A. CassFrom Merit to Expertise and Back: The Evolution of the U.S. Civil Service System, Joseph Postell

Rupert Darwall on The Age of Error and the West's Undoing

1 hr 13 min

Jace Lington speaks with Rupert Darwall about his new book, The Age of Error and the West's Undoing. In the book, Darwall argues that Western leaders doubled down on policies to fight climate change after the 2008 financial crisis, which led to a clash between environmentalism and geopolitics. He also makes the case that politicians became codependent on experts (central bankers, climate scientists, and public health officials) in ways that undermine democratic accountability and lead to worse policy outcomes. Show notes:  YouTube versionRupert's Book Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here

Suncor, Energy Policy, and the Future of Federalism (Notice & Comment May 2026 Conference Keynote Panel)

35 min

In the keynote panel from the Gray Center's May conference, moderator Adam White (Gray Center, AEI) speaks with Michael Williams (West Virginia Solicitor General) and Matt Leopold (Holland & Knight and former EPA General Counsel) about federal energy and environmental regulation, focusing on the Supreme Court’s pending Suncor v. City of Boulder case and broader post-Chevron litigation dynamics. The case concerns whether state tort law can be used to impose liability for climate change damages and effectively regulate interstate emissions, raising preemption and territorial-jurisdiction concerns. The discussion covers potential federal common law and Clean Air Act preemption, limits on extraterritorial regulation, and skepticism of Dormant Commerce Clause arguments. They connect these issues to the EPA’s current deregulatory efforts, the end of Chevron deference after Loper Bright, and questions about Mass. v. EPA. Show notes:  YouTube version2024 Gray Center webinar on Federal Preemption and Environmental Regulation2024 Gray Matters Episode about the Role of State Tort Law in the World of Climate Lawsuits and Federalism

Who Can Sue Agencies Now, and For What? (Notice & Comment May 2026 Conference Panel 2)

1 hr 4 min

In this panel discussion, moderator Aaron Nielson (University of Texas at Austin) speaks with Michael Buschbacher (Boyden Gray PLLC), Matt Gregory (Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP), and Stephanie Maloney (U.S. Chamber Litigation Center) about legal remedies and the state of strategic litigation against agencies. Show notes:   YouTube version Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here

Jeff Starling and Reeve Bull on Using AI for Regulatory Reform in Oklahoma

39 min

Oklahoma Secretary of Energy and Environment Jeff Starling and the Fulcrum Foundation’s Reeve Bull discuss a new regulatory reform pilot project in Oklahoma. They share how Oklahoma is using AI to reform regulatory processes, reduce costs, and improve efficiency in government.    Show notes:   Reeve T. Bull, “Oklahoma is Leading the Way on AI-Powered Regulatory and Permitting Reform” 

NCLA's Mark Chenoweth on the State of Injunctive Relief

47 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss talk with NCLA President and Chief Legal Officer Mark Chenoweth about the evolving landscape of injunctions in the legal system, particularly in light of recent cases likeTrump v. CASA. They explore the definition and function of injunctions, the surge of nationwide injunctions during the Trump administration, and the implications of forum shopping in legal proceedings. The conversation also delves into the role of the Administrative Procedure Act in judicial review and the strategic maneuvers of agencies to circumvent judicial oversight. Check out NCLA's latest cases here "The Truth of Erasure: Universal Remedies for Universal Agency Actions," by T. Elliot Gaiser, Mathura Sridharan, and Nicholas Cordova "Nationwide Injunctions' Governance Problems: Forum-Shopping, Politicizing Courts, and Eroding Constitutional Structure," Ronald A. Cass "How Should the Court Respond to the Combination of Political Polarity, Legislative Impotence, and Executive Branch Overreach?" Richard J. Pierce, Jr.

After the Slaughter, Here's What's Cooking

57 min

Adam White, Jace Lington, and Bennett Nuss analyze the recent Supreme Court decisions in Trump v. Slaughter and Trump v. Cook, focusing on the implications for executive power, administrative agency independence, and the future of administrative law. Adam White in SCOTUSblog Aditya Bamzai & Aaron Nielson on the Fed and Article II at The Cornell Law Review

Quo Vadis—Federal Trade Commission? Chief Judge Susan Braden on the Future of the FTC after Slaughter

36 min

Adam White hosts Chief Judge Susan G. Braden (Ret.) to discuss the Supreme Court’s decision in Trump v. Slaughter, which held the Federal Trade Commission’s statutory independence unconstitutional and explicitly overruled Humphrey’s Executor. Braden argues the ruling will ripple across administrative law by treating agencies with authority to file lawsuits on behalf of the United States as executive agencies subject to presidential control, and by limiting “independent” agencies to advisory roles. Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here Judge Braden's paper on the future of the FTCAdam White's analysis of Slaughter and Cook in SCOTUSblog

What Are the Post-Chevron Courts Doing? (Notice & Comment May 2026 Conference Panel 1)

1 hr 5 min

In this first panel from the Gray Center’s May conference, moderator Christopher J. Walker (University of Michigan) speaks with Megan Brown (Wiley Rein LLP), Roman Martinez (Latham & Watkins LLP), and Maria Monaghan (U.S. Chamber Litigation Center) about what courts are doing after Chevron’s overruling in Loper Bright. They discuss unresolved issues now playing out in lower courts, including Skidmore’s role, congressional delegation and “policymaking discretion,” stare decisis for prior Chevron-era precedents, and implications for other deference doctrines like Auer/Kisor. Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here

Judging After Loper Bright

1 hr 4 min

In this final panel from the Gray Center’s October conference, moderator Aaron Nielsen (UT Austin) speaks with Judge Naomi Rao (D.C. Circuit) and Judge Steven Menashi (Second Circuit) about their role as judges after Loper Bright ended Chevron deference. Rao and Menashi describe their interpretive approaches—text-first, but attentive to context, structure, statutory purpose, and legal terms of art—and emphasize that interpretation involves judgment. They argueLoper Bright largely restores courts’ independent duty to decide questions of law under the APA, while still allowing agencies discretion where statutes leave open-textured implementation choices or explicit delegations. The panel discusses D.C. Circuit practices, post–Loper Bright arguments about expertise, “express delegation,” Skidmore, forum shopping, major questions doctrine, scientific complexity, and how the debate may shift toward Article I and nondelegation. Sign up for email updates from the Gray Center here

Antitrust Policy in a Populist Era

1 hr 3 min

The third panel discussion from the Gray Center’s Fall 2025 conference featuring: Noah Phillips, Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLPMatt Stoller, American Economic Liberties Project Moderator: Senior Judge Douglas Ginsburg, D.C. Circuit

Chad Squitieri on the President's Role in Lawmaking

57 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Chad Squitieri about his new paper, Congress in the Mouth of a Lawyer, which focuses on the president’s role in the lawmaking process. Prof. Squittieri discusses the constitutional role of the president in lawmaking, the importance of precise definitions of Congress, and implications for judges interpreting statutes. He explores how understanding the president's involvement influences legal doctrines and the separation of powers. 

2025 State of the Administrative State Conference Panel 1: The State of the Administrative State

59 min

The first panel discussion from the Gray Center's Fall 2025 conference featuring:  James Burnham, King Street Legal, and formerly of the U.S. Department of Government Efficiency Susan Dudley, former Administrator, White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs; Founder & Senior Scholar, GW Regulatory Studies Center; Distinguished Professor of Practice, Trachtenberg School of Public Policy & Public Administration Lisa Heinzerling, Georgetown University Law Center Moderator: Mene Ukueberuwa, Wall Street Journal

Caroline Cecot on EPA Changes to Cost-Benefit Analysis

52 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Caroline Cecot about how recent changes in the EPA's analytical methods affect transparency and environmental protection. She discusses the evolution of cost-benefit analysis from a deregulatory tool to a framework for safeguarding health and the environment, and how recent administrative moves might revert it to "arbitrary and capricious" territory. The conversation delves into critical questions about regulatory decision-making, the role of Congress, and the impact of transparency on public trust. Notes: Benefit-Cost Analysis Under Threat, Caroline Cecot, The Regulatory Review Rethinking Health-Based Environmental Standards, Michael Livermore and Richard Revesz, New York University Law Review Deregulatory Cost-Benefit Analysis and Regulatory Stability, Caroline Cecot, Duke Law Journal EPA Turbine Rule, January 2026 

What You Might not Have Already Heard About SCOTUS on Emergency Tariffs

1 hr 10 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Adam White about the recent Supreme Court case, exploring the nuances of statutory interpretation, the major questions doctrine, and the implications for executive and legislative powers. The Gray Center team analyzes the court's opinions, historical context, and future legal debates. Notes: Learning Resources, Inc. v. TrumpMichael D. Ramsey making an originalist defense of the Major Questions DoctrineJohn Ehrett's article at The American Mind about the New Right and the Major Questions DoctrineAdam White on the Court's approach to presidential powerJohn Eastman on the tariff as an exercise of foreign policy

Patrick McLaughlin on PLF’s Nondelegation Project

49 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Patrick A. McLaughlin about The Nondelegation Project at the Pacific Legal Foundation, which analyzes compliance with the nondelegation doctrine using AI and machine learning. He highlights the significant number of regulatory restrictions in the CFR, the role of vague statutes, and the importance of judicial doctrines like the intelligible principle test. The discussion also touches on the project's implications for legislative reform, state-level applications, and the challenges of data collection. Notes: The Nondelegation Project Introduction to the Nondelegation Project, Patrick A. McLaughlin and Mitchell Scacchi RegData project 26 U.S. Code § 7805 (Rules and regulations) 26 U.S. Code § 42 (Low-income housing credit) Harmonizing Delegation and Deference After Loper Bright, Kristin E. Hickman and Amy J. Wildermuth The Virginia Model: How the Commonwealth Build a Best-In-Class Regulatory System, Reeve T. Bull and Patrick A. McLaughlin 

Reeve Bull on Achieving Regulatory Reform in Virginia

1 hr 9 min

Jace Lington chats with Reeve Bull about his experiences running Virginia’s Office of Regulatory Management. Bull discusses Virginia's recent regulatory reform efforts, highlighting the successful streamlining of regulations and the significant savings achieved. He emphasizes the importance of transparency in the permitting process and the need to balance regulation with economic growth. Bull addresses criticisms of deregulation, particularly concerning health and safety, and explains how Virginia's approach has focused on maintaining essential protections while reducing unnecessary burdens. The conversation also explores the integration of AI in regulatory processes and the importance of considering the impacts on local governments and small businesses. Notes: The Virginia Model: How the Commonwealth Build a Best-In-Class Regulatory System, Reeve T. Bull and Patrick A. McLaughlin  Virginia’s New Approach to Regulatory Analysis, 2023 Gray Matters Episode with Andrew Wheeler and Reeve Bull 

Ronald J. Pestritto on Government by the Unelected

1 hr 12 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Hillsdale College Professor Ronald J. Pestritto about his recent article tracing the rise of the administrative state and the revolution it wrought in the federal government. Pestritto explores the evolution of the administrative state, tracing its roots back to the Progressive Era and the shift from a government based on consent to one grounded in expertise. He argues that this transformation has led to a significant disconnect between elected officials and the bureaucratic agencies that wield substantial power without direct accountability to the electorate. The conversation delves into the implications of this shift, particularly in the context of the Trump administration's attempts to rein in the administrative state and the ongoing debates surrounding judicial oversight and legislative responsibility. Notes: Government By the Unelected: How It Happened, and How It Might Be Tamed, Ronald J. Pestritto The Original Progressives Are No Guide for Today's Conservatives, Ronald J. Pestritto

Jeffrey Pojanowski on the "Faces of Formalism"

46 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss chat with Notre Dame Law Professor Jeffery Pojanowski about his forthcoming paper, “Faces of Formalism.” The paper explores the complexities of formalism in legal interpretation, discussing its two faces: authority and method. They delve into concrete examples, such as Gorsuch's application of textualism in the Bostock case, and examine the tensions that arise between these two aspects. Pojanowski offers some ideas about how to look for authoritative answers while respecting rules meant to limit judicial discretion. Notes: Faces of Formalism, Jefferey PojanowskiNeoclassical Administrative Law, Jeffrey Pojanowski

The Gray Center's 2025 Year in Review

1 hr 11 min

Adam White, Jace Lington, and Bennett Nuss reflect on the significant regulatory developments of 2025, focusing on under-reported stories in the administrative state. They discuss the future of the Federal Reserve, the evolving relationships between public and private entities, the impact of repealing disparate impact laws, and the diminishing role of Congress. Notes: Trump Regulatory Policy: 2025 Compendium, Bridget C.E. Dooling, Notice & Comment BlogThe Brave New World of Administrative Law, Adam White and Bennett Nuss, 2024 A Hard Look Podcast

Eli Nachmany on the Stare Decisis Effects of Loper Bright 1

58 min

Jace Lington and Bennett Nuss discuss the implications of the Loper Bright decision on administrative law with guest Eli Nachmany. Eli’s forthcoming paper, “Deference Undisturbed,” examines the effects of theLoper Bright decision on prior cases decided under the Chevron framework. They discuss the open legal questions that remain after the end of Chevron, the role of Congress in shaping administrative law, and the future of various deference doctrines.   Notes: Vacatur as Complete Relief, Eli Nachmany, Cato Supreme Court Review  Chevron Deference Was Fun While It Lasted, Eugene Scalia, Wall Street Journal 

Tanner Jones on How Vulcan Technologies Uses AI to Revolutionize Regulation

21 min

Jace Lington chats with Vulcan Technologies CEO Tanner Jones about how his company uses AI to help agencies, lawmakers, and businesses navigate the complex world of administrative law. They discuss whether AI systems will replace the industry and government consultants who usually guide people through the layers of law, regulation, and court precedent that affect our world.  Notes: Vulcan Technologies Website Restoring Legislative Authority: A Balanced Approach to Agency Deference, Jonathan Wolfson and Tanner Jones Deference article 

John Vecchione on What the Constitution Says About Presidents and Tariffs

44 min

Bennett Nuss chats with New Civil Liberties Alliance Senior Litigation Counsel John Vecchione about the tariff case pending before the Supreme Court, Learning Resources, Inc. v. Trump. They discuss the main arguments about the extent of the president’s power over tariff policy and what the court might decide. Notes: Trump’s tariffs are unconstitutional—we’re suing to end them, John J. Vecchione and Andrew J. Morris NCLA’s amicus brief in the Learning Resources case President Donald Trump’s reply brief in the Learning Resources case Prof. Chad Squitieri’s amicus brief in the Learning Resources case Prof. Aditya Bamzai’s amicus brief in the Learning Resources case Adam White at SCOTUSblog on the Learning Resources case 

Christopher J. Walker on Congress and the Shifting Sands in Administrative Law

42 min

Jace Lington chats with University of Michigan Law Professor Christopher J. Walker about how to reinvigorate Congress in light of the changing administrative law landscape. They discuss his recent article, Congress and the Shifting Sands in Administrative Law, and his ideas about how Congress can play a larger role in federal policymaking. Notes: Congress and the Shifting Sands in Administrative Law, Christopher J. Walker Delegation and Time, Jonathan H. Adler & Christopher J. Walker Congress’s Anti-Removal Power, Aaron L. Nielson & Christopher J. Walker Post-Chevron Working Group Report, Sen. Eric Schmitt (R-MO) 

Daniel Kelly on Jarkesy and the End of Political Adjudication

1 hr 6 min

Jace Lington chats with former Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice Daniel Kelly about what the Constitution says regarding who may exercise the judicial power. They discuss his new Gray Center policy brief, Jarkesy and the End of Political Adjudication, and his argument that the Supreme Court should go further and hold that the Constitution requires many trials now handled by agency adjudicators to take place in the proper forum—an Article III court.  Notes: Jarkesy and the End of Political Adjudication, Daniel Kelly

Beau Baumann on the History of Legislative Constitutionalism

52 min

Adam White and Jace Lington chat with Beau J. Baumann about his historical research into the Offices of Legislative Counsel. They discuss his forthcoming paper, Resurrecting the Trinity of Legislative Constitutionalism, and how Progressive reformers at the turn of the twentieth century built institutions to arrest congressional decline. Notes: Resurrecting the Trinity of Legislative Constitutionalism, Beau J. Baumann  How Chief Justice Taft Wrote the Famous Myers Opinion, with Robert Post, Gray Matters 

Jennifer Mascott on the Appointments Clause and Special Counsel Jack Smith

32 min

Jace Lington chats with Jenn Mascott about Judge Aileen Cannon's decision to dismiss the classified documents case against Donald Trump. They discuss the Appointments Clause and the broader context of the debate surrounding the special counsel investigation of the former president. Notes: Judge Aileen Cannon's decision in US v. Trump Justice Thomas's concurring opinion in Trump v. US Jenn Mascott's Stanford Law Review article on the Appointments Clause

A Debate on The Right—Climate Lawsuits and Federalism: What Is the Role of State Tort Law?

1 hr 8 min

This is a rebroadcast of a panel discussion from an event we co-hosted on May 15, 2024, with the Manhattan Institute and the Federalist Society. The panelists discuss whether state tort law is an appropriate tool for addressing climate change and the petition for certiorari in Sunoco LP, et al. v. City and County of Honolulu. Featured Speakers: Jonathan Adler, Case Western Reserve University School of LawJames Copland, Senior Fellow and Director of Legal Policy, Manhattan InstituteDonald Kochan, Antonin Scalia Law SchoolJennifer Mascott, C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State

Federal Preemption and Environmental Regulation

1 hr 26 min

This is a rebroadcast of the Gray Center's Federal Preemption and Environmental Regulation Webinar. We hosted this event on April 29, 2024, to discuss the issues involved in two pending cases where energy companies have asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review whether the Clean Air Act preempts attempts by Honolulu, Hawaii, to redress certain climate change-related alleged injuries.  Featured Speakers: Jonathan Adler, Case Western Reserve University School of LawRichard Epstein, New York UniversityEdmund LaCour, Solicitor General of AlabamaJennifer Mascott, C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative StateAdam White, C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State Notes: Video of the Webinar

Paul Ray's Critique of the Expertise Rationale for Chevron Deference

47 min

Adam White and Jace Lington chat with former OIRA Administrator Paul J. Ray about his new paper, “Lover, Mystic, Bureaucrat, Judge: The Communication of Expertise and the Deference Doctrines.” In the paper, Mr. Ray critiques the expertise rationale for Chevron deference, arguing that agency employees can share much of the special knowledge they use to make decisions with reviewing courts.  Notes: Lover, Mystic, Bureaucrat, Judge: The Communication of Expertise and the Deference Doctrines, Paul J. Ray Keynote Address and Fireside Chat, October 2023, Chevron on Trial: The Supreme Court and the Future of Agency Authority and Expertise 

Equity and the Administrative State

1 hr 29 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the Georgetown Journal of Law & Public Policy recently hosted a series of webinars ahead of a forthcoming symposium on Equity and the Administrative State. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion from February 23, 2024, about affirmative action and other ways regulators pursue equity through the administrative state featuring Ming Chen, Jesse Merriam, and Bijal Shah, moderated by Kmele Foster. Notes: Video of the Webinar

Racial Classifications and Democratic Institutions

1 hr 31 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the Georgetown Journal of Law & Public Policy recently hosted a series of webinars ahead of a forthcoming symposium on Equity and the Administrative State. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion about the use of racial classifications to make public policy and how race has affected the character of American institutions featuring David Bernstein, Jonathan Berry, and Joy Milligan, moderated by Renée Landers. Notes: Watch a video of the discussion

Disney v. Democracy

58 min

Jace Lington chats with Scalia Law Professor Donald J. Kochan about Florida and Disney. They discuss his recent paper applying public choice theory to Florida’s Reedy Creek Improvement Act of 1967 and why the special treatment Disney received from the state is not a good model for state and local regulation. Notes: Disney v. Democracy? A Public Choice and Good Governance Analysis of Florida’s Reedy Creek Improvement Act of 1967 and Its Resulting Regime, Donald J. Kochan

Jed Shugerman's Major Questions About Emergency Powers and Standing

1 hr 2 min

Adam White and Jace Lington chat with Law Professor Jed Handelsman Shugerman about lingering issues following the Supreme Court’s decision in the Biden v. Nebraska student loan case. They discuss a recent paper Shugerman presented at a Gray Center research roundtable, “Biden v. Nebraska: The New State Standing and the (Old) Purposive Major Questions Doctrine.” Notes: Biden v. Nebraska: The New State Standing and the (Old) Purposive Major Questions Doctrine, Jed Handelsman Shugerman Major Questions About Presidentialism: Untangling the “Chain of Dependence” Across Administrative Law, Jed Handelsman Shugerman and Jodi L. Short Standing Without Injury, Jonathan H. AdlerAn Originalist Defense of the Major Questions Doctrine, Michael D. Ramsey The Major Questions Doctrine: Right Diagnosis, Wrong Remedy, Thomas W. Merrill The Ghosts of Chevron Present and Future, Gary S. Lawson The Major Answers Doctrine, Lisa Heinzerling The New Purpose and Intent in Major Questions Cases, Anita S. Krishnakumar The Major Questions Doctrine: Unfounded, Unbounded, and Confounded, Ronald M. Levin The Minor Questions Doctrine, Aaron L. Nielson The Major Questions Doctrine Outside Chevron‘s Domain, Adam R.F. Gustafson

Michael Ramsey’s Originalist Defense of the Major Questions Doctrine

52 min

Adam White and Jace Lington chat with Law Professor Michael D. Ramsey about how originalists can defend the major questions doctrine as a substantive canon of interpretation. He examines post-ratification court practice and other substantive canons designed by judges to minimize the harms of judicial error when interpreting ambiguous statutes. Ramsey recently presented a paper on this subject at a Gray Center research roundtable. Notes: An Originalist Defense of the Major Questions Doctrine, Michael D. Ramsey The Major Questions Doctrine: Right Diagnosis, Wrong Remedy, Thomas W. Merrill The Ghosts of Chevron Present and Future, Gary S. Lawson Biden v. Nebraska: The New State Standing and the (Old) Purposive Major Questions Doctrine, Jed Handelsman Shugerman The Major Answers Doctrine, Lisa Heinzerling The New Purpose and Intent in Major Questions Cases, Anita S. Krishnakumar The Major Questions Doctrine: Unfounded, Unbounded, and Confounded, Ronald M. Levin The Minor Questions Doctrine, Aaron L. Nielson The Major Questions Doctrine Outside Chevron‘s Domain, Adam R.F. Gustafson

Fixing Deference with Ronald A. Cass

58 min

Adam White and Jace Lington chat with Ronald A. Cass about the future of judicial deference to agency actions. They discuss Cass’s recent papers, “Fixing Deference: Delegation, Discretion, and Deference Under Separated Powers,” published by the New York University Journal of Law & Liberty, and “Getting Deference Right,” published by National Affairs. Ron insists on the crucial distinction between court decisions on what the law means and agency decisions about policy implementation. Notes: Fixing Deference: Delegation, Discretion, and Deference Under Separated Powers (NYU JLL, 2023) Getting Deference Right (National Affairs, 2024) Loper Bright Amicus Brief, Gray Center Separation of Powers Clinic Gray Center 2023 Rule of Law Symposium

The Future of Financial Regulation Panel 2: What Should Regulate the Financial Regulators?

1 hr 14 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State, the Mercatus Center, and the Journal of Law, Economics & Policy recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of financial regulation. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion featuring law professors Bridget C.E. Dooling and Kristin E. Hickman along with former OIRA Administrator Paul J. Ray and AEI Senior Fellow Emeritus Peter Wallison, moderated by Gray Center Co-Executive Director Adam White. They discuss OIRA oversight of financial regulators and how to reform federal financial regulations. Notes: Videos from the conference

The Future of Financial Regulation Panel 1: What is the Future of Financial Regulation?

1 hr 28 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State, the Mercatus Center, and the Journal of Law, Economics & Policy recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of financial regulation. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion featuring the Hoover Institution's John H. Cochrane and professors Kathryn Judge, Jonathan R. Macey, and Todd J. Zywicki, moderated by Scalia Law professor Paolo Saguato. They discuss banking regulation, consumer finance, and what might be coming next in the world of financial regulation. Notes: Videos from the conference

The Future of Financial Regulation: Keynote Conversation with Jelena McWilliams

33 min

This episode of Gray Matters is the first of a three-part series and came out of a recent conference we hosted about the future of financial regulation. In this episode, Adam White speaks with former FDIC Chairman Jelena McWilliams about the current state of banking regulation. They discuss presidential oversight of the FDIC, how chairman McWilliams thought about her role, and the most pressing issues facing banks and regulators today. Notes: Videos from the conferenceChairman McWilliams's op-ed in the Wall Street Journal about changes in FDIC practiceWall Street Journal editorial about Chairman McWilliams's resignation from the FDIC

Cicero Institute 2023 Report on State Regulatory Process Reform

46 min

Adam White and Jace Lington talk with Jonathan Wolfson about a new Cicero Institute report that ranks state regulatory systems based on their accountability, responsiveness, and transparency. They discuss cost-benefit analysis, regulatory sunset provisions, state-level centralized review modeled on OIRA, and venue restrictions. Notes: Matthew Nolan and Jonathan Wolfson, National Regulatory Reform: Progress Rankings Report 2023Matthew Nolan and Jonathan Wolfson, State Regulatory Processes Are Ripe for Reform, GoverningCicero Institute, Regulatory Sunset Model BillHarvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Administrative Law in the StatesEugene Scalia, 2023 C. Boyden Gray Lecture on the Administrative State, “The Administrative State Debate: A View From the Secretary’s Office”2021, Stuart Shapiro, The Impossibility of Legislative Regulatory Reform and the Futility of Executive Regulatory Reform, George Mason Law Review

Chevron on Trial Panel 4: The Future of Deference and Environmental Law

1 hr 5 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the George Mason Law Review recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of Chevron Deference. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion featuring Professors Caroline Cecot, Emily Hammond, and E. Donald Elliott, moderated by Senior Judge Douglas H. Ginsburg of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. They focus on the future of Chevron deference in the context of environmental and energy law. Notes: Video from the conference

Chevron on Trial Panel 3: Who Interprets Statutes?

1 hr 10 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the George Mason Law Review recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of Chevron Deference. This episode of Gray Matters is a panel discussion featuring Aditya Bamzai, Jonathan S. Masur, Eli Nachmany, Victoria F. Nourse, moderated by Judge Chad A. Readler of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. Notes: Video from the conference

Chevron on Trial Keynote: Paul J. Ray on the Expertise Rationale for Chevron Deference and a Fireside Chat with Jennifer Mascott

44 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the George Mason Law Review recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of Chevron Deference. This episode of Gray Matters features a keynote address from Paul J. Ray, presenting his new paper about the expertise rationale for Chevron deference, and a fireside chat between Mr. Ray and Gray Center Co-Executive Director Jennifer Mascott, discussing his time as Administrator of OIRA. Notes: Video from the conferencePaul J. Ray's new paper on the expertise rational for Chevron deference

Chevron on Trial Panel 2: Is Chevron Inevitable? What Should Replace It?

1 hr 10 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the George Mason Law Review recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of Chevron Deference. This episode of Gray Matters features a discussion among Law Professors Lisa Schultz Bressman, John F. Duffy, and Daniel E. Walters about the Loper Bright case and whether some form of judicial deference is unavoidable in administrative law, moderated by Judge David J. Porter of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. Notes: Video of the panel discussion from the conference

Chevron on Trial Panel 1: Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo

1 hr 25 min

The C. Boyden Gray Center for the Study of the Administrative State and the George Mason Law Review recently hosted a full-day symposium on the future of Chevron Deference. This episode of Gray Matters features a discussion among Law Professors Kent Barnett, Christopher J. Walker, and Thomas W. Merril about the Loper Bright case and the future of Chevron deference, moderated by Judge Paul B. Matey of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. Notes: Video of the panel discussion from the conference

SCOTUS Preview Part 2 with Josh Chafetz and Noah Rosenblum

57 min

Adam White and Jace Lington talk with Josh Chafetz and Noah Rosenblum about some of the big administrative law cases pending before the U.S. Supreme Court. They discuss the state of the Court, where things might be headed next, and problems with conservative critiques of the Administrative State. Notes: Noah Rosenblum, What We Talk About When We Talk About the Rule of Law in the Administrative State, New York University Journal of Law & Liberty, Vol. 16, No. 3 (2023)Josh Chafetz, The New Judicial Power Grab, St. Louis University Law Journal, Vol. 67 (2023)CFPB v. CFAS, Brief of Professors of History and Constitutional Law as Amici Curiae (2023)Beau J. Baumann, Americana Administrative Law, Georgetown Law Journal, Vol. 111 (2023)Nikolas Bowie & Daphna Renan, The Separation-of-Powers Counterrevolution, Vol. 131, No. 7 (2022)Ashraf Ahmed, Lev Menand, Noah Rosenblum, The Tragedy of Presidential Administration, Gray Center Working Paper, 2021Josh Chafetz, Congress’s Constitution (2019)Leah Litman, Debunking Antinovelty, Duke Law Journal, Vol. 66, No. 7 (2017)Kent Barnett & Christopher J. Walker, Chevron in the Circuit Courts, Michigan Law Review, Vol. 116, No. 1 (2017)Daniel R. Ernst, Tocqueville’s Nightmare, Oxford University Press (2014)Richard E. Neustadt, Presidential Power and the Modern Presidents (1991)

SCOTUS Preview Part 1 with Richard Epstein and Allyson Ho

1 hr 0 min

Adam White talks with NYU Law Professor Richard Epstein and Gibson Dunn Partner Allyson Ho about the upcoming Supreme Court term. They discuss the recent oral argument in the CFPB funding case, the major questions doctrine, how the court should approach revisiting Chevron deference in the upcoming Loper Brightcase, and the adjudication system in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

"Why Congress" with Philip Wallach

44 min

Jace Lington talks with AEI’s Philip Wallach about his new book, Why Congress. They discuss what makes Congress central to the American system of representative government and reasons we should look to Congress as the best place to resolve the most contentious issues of our day. Notes: Why Congress, Oxford University Press, 2023 The Revolution That Wasn’t: Conservatives Against Congress, 1981-2018, Gray Center Working Paper 20-22Incompletely Theorized Agreements in Constitutional Law, Cass Sunstein, 2007

Rethinking Civil Service Management with James-Christian Blockwood

45 min

Adam White and Jace Lington talk with James-Christian Blockwood about his recent Government Executive article on civil service reform. They discuss current proposals to make more civil servants removable at will as well as ways to build a nonpartisan, professional federal workforce that protects the interests of the American people. Show Notes: Let's Rethink the Management of our Civil Service, GovExec, April 28, 2023Partnership for Public Service, Website"You Report to Me” Gray Matters Podcast with David Bernhardt, May 10, 2023“Do Public Sector Unions Make Government Unaccountable?” Gray Matters Podcast with Philip K. Howard, January 24, 2023From Merit to Expertise and Back: The Evolution of the U.S. Civil Service System, Joseph Postell, Gray Center Working Paper, February 6, 2020Restoring Accountability to the Executive Branch, Philip K. Howard, Gray Center Working Paper, February 6, 2020Quick Actions to Improve Recruitment, Hiring, and Accountability in the Federal Workforce, Jeffrey Salmon, Gray Center Policy Brief, March 2021 Civil Service: Pulling In or Pushing Away, Sally Katzen, Gray Center Policy Brief, August 2020Jimmy Carter and Civil Service Reform, Stuart E. Eizenstat, Gray Center Working Paper, May 22, 2019

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