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Alis Anagnostakis (Ph.D.)

The Developmental

A Social Sciences , Science and Business podcast

#105 in Social Sciences · 🇦🇺
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About the show

A podcast about the messy, beautiful ways grown-ups grow up. Leaders, learning experts and developmental researchers come together to explore turning science into the day-to-day practice of adult development in teams, homes, organisations, and life. Dr Alis Anagnostakis is an adult development researcher, group learning facilitator and founder of the Vertical Development Institute. Her highest hope as a researcher-practitioner is to help support the growth of conscious, mature and future-fit leaders and to bring the tools of vertical development into day-to-day to day life. www.verticaldevelopment.education

Newest episodes

Reinventing HR for the Age of Disruption

1 hr 17 min

In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with one of the wisest, most conscious HR leaders I know: Fleur Carter. Fleur has spent over twenty years inside one of the world’s largest and most innovative retail organisations, experimenting with what leadership development could become when the old playbooks stop working. Fleur and I have been in each other’s orbit for several years now, connected by a shared passion for vertical development and a growing inquiry about what the people function needs to become in this era of relentless disruption. This conversation grew out of several unrecorded ones - and true to form, we didn’t script it. We followed the thread and got to places we both found insightful, and I hope you do too. What emerged is an honest exploration of what it takes to do developmental work at enterprise scale from the inside - from the story of a CEO who volunteered his own vulnerability as the starting point for collective change, to the structural redesigns needed when governance and reward systems actively work against the mindset shifts the business says it wants. I came away holding a question that I think will stay with me for a while: what does it take to learn to breathe in free fall, when there are no more footholds between one disruption and the next? Episode Highlights 00:00 - Welcome & Intro Alis introduces Fleur and frames the conversation around reinventing HR in an age where disruption has become the norm rather than the exception. 03:00 - We Are All “In Over Our Heads” Fleur reflects on Robert Kegan’s metaphor of ‘being in over our heads’ and how the assumption that disruption is temporary seems to have collapsed. A Buddhist teacher’s provocation: what if we stopped looking for footholds and accepted we are in free fall? 10:00 - From Buddhism to Bob Kegan How Fleur’s personal journey through yoga, Buddhism, and living in India converged with her discovery of adult development theory and the links of modern psychology...

Hacking Narcissism

1 hr 20 min

In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with fellow Substacker, Dr. Nathalie Martinek, an independent researcher and facilitator whose story and work brings new clarity to the messy business of human growth. We explore how narcissism, and the shadow of shame that often goes with it, can be reframed not as a clinical label, but as a relational pattern that we each play a part in. Nathalie takes us from her time as a researcher in cancer biology labs to her own mirror moment: discovering how people (including herself) can behave like cancerous cells within toxic organisational cultures. In this episode, she shares: A vivid reframing of narcissism as something we all carry in relationship dynamics A powerful three‑fold shame framework for navigating inner resistance when we set boundaries Practical tools—from narrative reframing to the Drama Triangle—to support courageous and relationally healthy leadership I hope this conversation encourages you to lean into your own developmental edge, helps you discover new pathways to model what you teach and walk the talk as leaders, becoming, as Nathalie beautifully says, an antidote to relational toxicity. Episode Highlights: 00:00 – Welcome & Intro Alis introduces Nathalie and sets the scene for a deep dive into shame, narcissism, and walking the talk in leadership and facilitation. 04:20 – From Cancer Biology to Human Systems Nathalie shares how her early science career in cancer research led her to study dysfunctional human systems and relational toxicity. 12:05 – Becoming the Cancer Cell A raw reflection on recognising her own toxic behaviours within toxic systems—and the wake-up call that led to change. 19:15 – Spiritual Awakening & Finding a New Path The messy, long road from burnout to learning reflective practice, spiritual healing, and group facilitation. 26:40 – Walking the Talk Nathalie explains how the Family Partnership Model demands facilitators model what they teach—and how she learned to embody...

Becoming Deliberately Developmental

1 hr 4 min

Welcome to a soulful, candid conversation with experienced coach Donna Trebilcock who is, without a doubt, one of the wisest and most passionate people leaders I have ever met, working in service of a one-of-a-kind brave, norm-bending organisation: Chorus. Together, we explore how deliberately developmental principles are being put into practice within Chorus — through redefining leadership, cultivating collective responsibility, and fostering environments where people can grow into their next developmental edge, but also Donna’s own journey or vertical development and the way it has enabled her to hold space for others’ growth. Donna invites us to a space where raw vulnerability is balanced with practical insights, offering a window into what it really takes to build a developmental organization while becoming a developmental person. If you are in any shape and form involved in leading people or leading people functions, or perhaps coaching or facilitating the growth of people in work contexts, this episode is not to be missed. Episode Summary * [00:00:00] Introduction to Donna Trebilcock * Donna’s background and coaching approach. * Introduction to Chorus as a self-managing, purpose-driven organization. * [00:03:00] The Reality of Developmental Work * How personal and organisational growth journeys are intertwined * [00:10:00] Identity and Developmental Transition * The inner struggle: “Who am I if I’m not indispensable?” * Donna’s transition from Achiever to Redefining and coaching as a turning point. * [00:18:00] The Role of Experimentation in Developmental Leadership * Concrete team-level experiments (e.g., peer feedback in meetings). * Removing top-down control creates empowered, engaged teams. * [00:23:00] Inside the Chorus Experiment * Chorus’ unique model: flat, no hierarchy, no job titles. * Internal coaching evolving from performance focus to deep developmental work. * [00:28:00] Leading Without Authority * Challenges of influence without power. * Coach...

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All episodes

Reinventing HR for the Age of Disruption

1 hr 17 min

In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with one of the wisest, most conscious HR leaders I know: Fleur Carter. Fleur has spent over twenty years inside one of the world’s largest and most innovative retail organisations, experimenting with what leadership development could become when the old playbooks stop working. Fleur and I have been in each other’s orbit for several years now, connected by a shared passion for vertical development and a growing inquiry about what the people function needs to become in this era of relentless disruption. This conversation grew out of several unrecorded ones - and true to form, we didn’t script it. We followed the thread and got to places we both found insightful, and I hope you do too. What emerged is an honest exploration of what it takes to do developmental work at enterprise scale from the inside - from the story of a CEO who volunteered his own vulnerability as the starting point for collective change, to the structural redesigns needed when governance and reward systems actively work against the mindset shifts the business says it wants. I came away holding a question that I think will stay with me for a while: what does it take to learn to breathe in free fall, when there are no more footholds between one disruption and the next? Episode Highlights 00:00 - Welcome & Intro Alis introduces Fleur and frames the conversation around reinventing HR in an age where disruption has become the norm rather than the exception. 03:00 - We Are All “In Over Our Heads” Fleur reflects on Robert Kegan’s metaphor of ‘being in over our heads’ and how the assumption that disruption is temporary seems to have collapsed. A Buddhist teacher’s provocation: what if we stopped looking for footholds and accepted we are in free fall? 10:00 - From Buddhism to Bob Kegan How Fleur’s personal journey through yoga, Buddhism, and living in India converged with her discovery of adult development theory and the links of modern psychology...

Hacking Narcissism

1 hr 20 min

In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with fellow Substacker, Dr. Nathalie Martinek, an independent researcher and facilitator whose story and work brings new clarity to the messy business of human growth. We explore how narcissism, and the shadow of shame that often goes with it, can be reframed not as a clinical label, but as a relational pattern that we each play a part in. Nathalie takes us from her time as a researcher in cancer biology labs to her own mirror moment: discovering how people (including herself) can behave like cancerous cells within toxic organisational cultures. In this episode, she shares: A vivid reframing of narcissism as something we all carry in relationship dynamics A powerful three‑fold shame framework for navigating inner resistance when we set boundaries Practical tools—from narrative reframing to the Drama Triangle—to support courageous and relationally healthy leadership I hope this conversation encourages you to lean into your own developmental edge, helps you discover new pathways to model what you teach and walk the talk as leaders, becoming, as Nathalie beautifully says, an antidote to relational toxicity. Episode Highlights: 00:00 – Welcome & Intro Alis introduces Nathalie and sets the scene for a deep dive into shame, narcissism, and walking the talk in leadership and facilitation. 04:20 – From Cancer Biology to Human Systems Nathalie shares how her early science career in cancer research led her to study dysfunctional human systems and relational toxicity. 12:05 – Becoming the Cancer Cell A raw reflection on recognising her own toxic behaviours within toxic systems—and the wake-up call that led to change. 19:15 – Spiritual Awakening & Finding a New Path The messy, long road from burnout to learning reflective practice, spiritual healing, and group facilitation. 26:40 – Walking the Talk Nathalie explains how the Family Partnership Model demands facilitators model what they teach—and how she learned to embody...

Becoming Deliberately Developmental

1 hr 4 min

Welcome to a soulful, candid conversation with experienced coach Donna Trebilcock who is, without a doubt, one of the wisest and most passionate people leaders I have ever met, working in service of a one-of-a-kind brave, norm-bending organisation: Chorus. Together, we explore how deliberately developmental principles are being put into practice within Chorus — through redefining leadership, cultivating collective responsibility, and fostering environments where people can grow into their next developmental edge, but also Donna’s own journey or vertical development and the way it has enabled her to hold space for others’ growth. Donna invites us to a space where raw vulnerability is balanced with practical insights, offering a window into what it really takes to build a developmental organization while becoming a developmental person. If you are in any shape and form involved in leading people or leading people functions, or perhaps coaching or facilitating the growth of people in work contexts, this episode is not to be missed. Episode Summary * [00:00:00] Introduction to Donna Trebilcock * Donna’s background and coaching approach. * Introduction to Chorus as a self-managing, purpose-driven organization. * [00:03:00] The Reality of Developmental Work * How personal and organisational growth journeys are intertwined * [00:10:00] Identity and Developmental Transition * The inner struggle: “Who am I if I’m not indispensable?” * Donna’s transition from Achiever to Redefining and coaching as a turning point. * [00:18:00] The Role of Experimentation in Developmental Leadership * Concrete team-level experiments (e.g., peer feedback in meetings). * Removing top-down control creates empowered, engaged teams. * [00:23:00] Inside the Chorus Experiment * Chorus’ unique model: flat, no hierarchy, no job titles. * Internal coaching evolving from performance focus to deep developmental work. * [00:28:00] Leading Without Authority * Challenges of influence without power. * Coach...

Concept of Self

1 hr 25 min

For this episode, I sat down with researcher, coach, and lifelong explorer Heather Frost to dive into her fascinating work on the concept of self. From global travel to coaching, psychology and philosophy, Heather shares how her journey led her to ask one of life’s most fundamental questions: What is the Self? Together, we unpack the difference between self-concept and the Concept of Self, explore how different understandings of self shape behaviour and identity, and consider what this all means for coaching, adult development, and how we relate to each other. I hope you leave this conversation with a new perspective on yourself and with renewed curiosity about the complexity and beauty of our minds. Episode Summary 00:00 – 05:30 | Origins of the Inquiry into SelfHeather’s lifelong curiosity about how people make sense of themselves, shaped by travel, philosophy, coaching, and neuroscience. 05:30 – 10:30 | Embracing UncertaintyImmersive travel as a practice of “not knowing” — cultivating openness, resilience, and a fluid sense of self. 10:30 – 15:30 | How Not-Knowing Changes UsAlis and Heather explore how dislocation and risk can deepen self-awareness and transform identity. 15:30 – 23:00 | Kindness, Openness, and HumilityExposure to difference builds compassion and dissolves rigid identity boundaries. 23:00 – 31:00 | Defining Terms: Self-Concept vs. Concept of SelfClear distinction: * Self-concept = beliefs about who I am * Concept of self = what I think the “self” is 31:00 – 39:00 | The 3 Spectrums of SelfHeather’s research reveals three key dimensions: * Stability – Is self constant or evolving? * Unity vs. Multiplicity – One self or many? * Thoughts-as-Self vs. Thoughts-as-Patterns 39:00 – 44:30 | Why This Matters in CoachingThe Concept of Self influences agency, decision-making, and behaviour change. Coaches must listen for clues in the client's language. 44:30 – 54:00 | Adapting Coaching ApproachesTailor your methods: future visualisation works for stable self...

A Lived Experience of Vertical Growth

1 hr 18 min

Through my work, I have been immensely lucky to meet some exceptional humans who have inspired me, taught me precious lessons of wisdom and even offered me the most precious gift of all: their friendship. This episode features one of these remarkable people: Samantha Kropff. Sam shares with us her journey from being a forensic investigator to becoming a leader and later a leadership development expert and the accompanying transformation she experienced in her work and life. She vulnerably shares the ups and downs of her growth - revelations, setbacks, hard-won lessons and the courageous choice to push herself out of her comfort zone again and again. Samantha is an inspiring example for every woman who has ever had to find her voice and step into her leadership power, especially when working in male-dominated environments. She is also an advocate for the value of vertical development as a life practice, showing us how incredibly beautiful and painfully messy the journey of human growth can actually be. Episode Summary: * [00:05:30] Sam’s Background: Sam’s career and personal journey towards vertical development. * [00:15:45] Redefining vs. Transforming: Differences between the lived experience of Redefining and Transforming. See this previous episode of The Developmental for an overview of the stages of development. * [00:25:00] Sam’s Career Change and Identity Shift * [00:35:00] Relationship with Time: Evolving from a linear to a flexible perspective on time. * [00:45:15] Integrating Shadow Aspects: Importance of integrating shadow aspects in personal growth. * [00:55:00] Organizational Change Challenges: Challenges in pushing for change as the chair of a culture reform committee. * [01:05:00] The Role of Discomfort in Growth: Discomfort as a catalyst for vertical development. * [01:14:00] Closing Thoughts: Final reflections on vertical growth's impact on individuals and organizations. Guest Bio: Samantha Kropff Samantha Kropff is a Manager of Leadership Devel...

Cancer as a Developmental Journey

1 hr 3 min

In this emotional conversation, I sit down with my dear friend, Belinda Forman, who shares her profound journey with cancer, not just as a battle to be fought, but as a deeply personal developmental journey. Belinda opens up about the initial shock of diagnosis, the rollercoaster of choices around treatments, and the unexpected pathways to personal growth that emerged from her experience. Through her story she invites us into a vulnerable exploration of the intersection of health crises and adult development, shedding light on the power of mindset, the importance of facing our mortality, and showing us how we might choose to lean into adversity as a gift of transformative growth. I hope you are as inspired as I was by Belinda’s insights into navigating one of life's toughest challenges with grace, ‘fire’, awareness, resilience, and an open heart, and that you find in this conversation some precious wisdom to bring into your own relationship with adversity. Episode summary * [00:00:00] Kicking off with a deep dive into growing through health challenges. * [00:03:11] Belinda opens up about her cancer journey and finding growth amidst adversity. * [00:09:58] She touches on the raw deal of facing mortality and the growth it spurred. * [00:12:18] Talks about how her views on control and acceptance were turned upside down. * [00:18:14] Highlights how a positive mindset and seeing cancer as part of her story helped her heal. * [00:35:01] Belinda reflects on the continuous journey of self-discovery and supporting oneself post-crisis. Useful Resources * Belinda’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/belindaforman/ * The meditation Belinda mentions she has found hepful and healing: * Insight timer - another great app for meditation Belinda recommends: https://insig.ht/j0c3vaJoNGb * Bowel cancer AU - www.bowelcanceraustralia.org * Learn more about colon cancer: Coloncancerfoundation.org Guest Bio: Belinda Forman Belinda Forman is a seasoned People and Culture profes...

Emotions as Superpowers

1 hr 5 min

In this episode we dive into the rollercoaster of emotions and how they secretly power our lives. I’m thrilled to learn from Dr. Cindy Sholes, a neuroscientist, coach and co-founder of the rREST™ technique, as we explore "Emotions as Superpowers." In this chat, Cindy takes us on her personal journey, from the foundational experiences of her early years to her research into neuroscience and her journey into the heart of human emotion. She sheds light on the mysteries of emotional agility and introduces us to the rREST technique – her unique approach to taming emotional stress. We'll explore how our feelings are not just fleeting reactions, but powerful guides that shape who we are and how we navigate the world - how we parent, engage with our life-partners and show up for others (and ourselves) every day. So, grab a cozy spot and join us for a conversation that I hope will be as enlightening as it is heartwarming. We're not just talking about emotions – we're aiming to discover how they can be our greatest superpowers in this crazy, beautiful and yet often overwhelming journey of life. Episode summary [00:02:33] Dr. Cindy shares her neuroscience background and personal experiences. [00:06:08] Journey from neuroscience to studying emotions and the subconscious. [00:09:51] Discussion on emotional triggers and the importance of emotional understanding. [00:17:20] Explanation of emotional agility in adult development. [00:23:35] Introduction to the rRest technique for managing emotional stress. [00:33:15] Four reflective questions for better emotional understanding. [00:41:21] How emotions manifest physically and impact behavior. [00:51:14] Curiosity as an effective tool for soothing emotions. [00:56:49] Importance of practice and awareness in emotional regulation. [00:59:44] Dr. Cindy's vision for emotional mastery and authentic self-expression. [01:02:31] Summary of key insights and the role of curiosity in emotional growth. Useful Resources * Cindy’s website: https:...

Embodiment and Vertical Development

1 hr 23 min

In the final episode of 'The Developmental' podcast for 2023, I explore a topic that has so far received very little attention - the role of the body in adult development. My guests, Natalie Goni and Hayley Linthwaite, are both pioneer practitioners at the intersection of vertical development and somatic practices and they bring a wealth of wisdom on the value of embodiment as a vehicle for personal growth. We explore what embodiment is (and what its opposite - disembodiment - feels like), the importance of understanding and befriending our body, the impact of ignoring physical discomfort, and the link between embodiment and leadership. We discuss the delicate topic of introducing somatic practices into leadership development programs and the untapped value for leaders and businesses. Natalie and Hayley both offer us the gift of two very different practices - so I’m encouraging you to listen to this episode in a private space where you might be able to get up, move or sit down, relax and close your eyes. Show summary 01:01 Understanding Embodiment and Vertical Development 01:47 Introducing the Guests: Natalie Goni and Haley Linthwaite 05:52 Exploring the Journey to Embodiment 11:26 Understanding Disembodiment 16:41 Exploring the Concept of Embodiment 19:36 The Role of Embodiment in Vertical Development 33:10 Overcoming Resistance to Embodiment in Organizations 39:41 Rediscovering Joy Through Movement 40:15 The Challenge of Breaking Free from Conditioning 40:43 Exploring Dance and Movement in Different Contexts 41:47 The Healing Power of Movement 43:05 The Role of the Body in Leadership and Decision Making 44:25 The Impact of Physical State on Leadership 47:16 The Importance of Self-Regulation and Self-Awareness 50:48 The Connection Between Body and Mind in Decision Making 51:51 The Role of Intention in Leadership 55:43 The Role of Embodiment in Vertical Development 56:40 The Power of Embodiment in Leadership 59:42 Practical Exercises for Embodiment - Hayley and N...

Positive Disintegration

1 hr 8 min

Content warning. This episode contains references to mental illness and suicide, which may be emotionally confronting or triggering to some listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to a healthcare professional or call your local helpline. Episode summary: Kate Arms introduces us to the work of Polish psychologist and psychiatrist Kazimierz Dąbrowski, a brilliant developmentalist virtually unknown outside of the gifted and neurodivergent community, whose work centred on exploring how developmental growth unfolds through cycles of disintegration and re-integration. I talked with Kate about why such moments of disintegration are vital to our long-term growth and at the same time incredibly difficult to navigate. We also explore why coaches could benefit from an understanding of this psychological process and all the painful emotions that arise as we breakdown and then breakthrough. We explore how, as coaches, we might support our clients to navigate the messy spaces towards a wiser, more mature, more balanced self and how we might help ourselves do the same. 00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Guest 00:54 Exploring the Intersection of Fields 01:32 The Role of Neurodivergence in Adult Development 02:10 Discovering Dąbrowski’s Work and its Impact 05:09 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Transformation 10:15 Understanding the Concept of 'Twice Exceptional' 11:48 The Power of Coaching in Personal Growth 12:26 The Role of Emotions in Development 17:04 Exploring Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration 29:12 Understanding Developmental Potential and Overexcitabilities 36:38 The Role of a Coach in Navigating Disintegration 39:33 The Intersection of Coaching and Therapy 47:16 The Impact of Developmental Theory on Personal Growth About Kate Arms, JD, CPCC, PCC For over 35 years, Kate has been studying the question of how to create social groups that thrive as communities while community members thrive as individuals. She has deep interests in hum...

Narrating Your Growth: Lifelong Lessons from Keeping a Journal

17 min

You can listen to an audio version of this article by clicking the ‘play’ button in the Substack app or, if you’re reading this on your email, click ‘play’ in the voiceover section above. Please let me know in the comments if this audio feature is useful to you and if you think it’s worth adding the audio to every article going forward. Saturday, 20th of February 1999. 11pm “I have long worried that if I were to lay down my thoughts in the pages of a journal that would give anyone a gateway into my most intimate musings, and I was afraid to risk it. Until now… I do believe that writing will give my future self an opportunity to go back in time, to re-live the past, to understand it not just with the mind of my future self, but through the eyes of my present self. Perhaps time will make my memories fade and my grown up self will look back on my teenage years with a completely different perception than my own right now. I’m hoping this journal, which I am starting tonight, will help me better understand my own children when they get to the age I am now. Perhaps it will help future me bridge the ‘generation gap’ …” This is the first entry in my first-ever journal. I started it when I was 16. My worry that my parents would read it was smaller than my worry that unless I did write, I would forever lose the memory of my teenage self and, with it, the proof that I had looked at the world in ways that seemed incomprehensible to the grown-ups around me at the time. Through my eyes, adults seemed to be afflicted with a strange sort of amnesia, that had erased any trace of their 16 year-old-selves and made them incapable of understanding the anxieties, passions and visceral intensity of regular teenagers like me. The thought I would one day forget too was terrifying. The journal was an attempt to hold my future self to account, but also my best shot at looking out for the children I knew I would raise someday. I didn’t want them to ever feel as disconnected from or misunde...

Neuroscience and Vertical Development

1 hr 13 min

While empirical evidence for adult development theories is robust, we still have much to learn about the cognitive and neurological substrates of human development. What changes in our brain when we develop vertically? How can the idea that humans evolve in ever-increasing stages of mental complexity and perspective-taking be reconciled with research on neuroplasticity and cognition? I was very excited to step into this fascinating in-between space together with Johan Mellerup Traekjaer a cognitive scientist with deep expertise in adult development. Here are a few of the key ideas we touched on: Brief Episode Notes: [00:00:00] Alis and Johan dive into the intersection of adult development and neuroscience. [00:02:00] Johan's background: From feeling like a school misfit to exploring cognitive science and time in the military. [00:08:00] Introduction to non-linear dynamics in cognitive development. [00:10:00] The brain's preference for predictability and its growth implications. [00:18:00] The brain's models of reality and their subjective nature. [00:31:00] The value of stepping outside one's comfort zone [00:33:00] Role of emotions in adult development and perspective shifts. [00:39:00] Connection between learning and inherent discomfort. [00:44:30] The brain's "handbrake" activates in overwhelming situations. [00:47:30] Value of taking small, uncomfortable steps for brain development. [00:49:00] Stress's influence on working memory, decision-making and perspective-taking [00:59:00] We're part of larger systems, not isolated entities. [01:00:30] Vision of a society prioritizing development and collective wisdom. [01:03:30] Societal benefits of focusing on developmental work. [01:05:30] Closing reflections and gratitude. About Johan Mellerup Traekjaer Johan has a diverse background ranging from academia to military and security work. In the early years, Johan worked on the frontline as a protection officer, security operator and consultant as well as in the reha...

A Systems Perspective on Vertical Development

1 hr 36 min

Recently I began exploring some prevailing (and to my mind, quite damaging) myths around vertical development. You can find the first article in this series below. Another one of these myths is that adult development is an individual journey. Much of the existing research on vertical development (including my own) has focused on individuals’ journeys through the stages and on the impact leaders operating from various stages (particularly later ones) can have on their teams and organisations. This is partly perhaps because individuals are much easier to study than whole systems. Whatever the reason for this preference for the individual perspective, we still have much to do in exploring the interconnectedness of individual and system and how that plays out in adult development. Thank you for reading Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up. This post is public so feel free to share it. On the other hand, practitioners in the complexity/systems space have been criticising the overly individualistic views of human development and have been advocating for a systems perspective as the way to foster sustainable, scalable change. In calling out the imbalance, some of them have swung the pendulum to the opposite end of the spectrum, dismissing any focus on individual growth/change as irrelevant and suggesting system-level interventions are the only way to have an impact. My lived experience working both within organisations - with groups large and small - as well as individually, with hundreds of leaders – has shown me that neither of these extremes seems to be the full picture. System and individual seem to be inextricably connected and I have come to believe that trying to influence one in isolation from the other is futile, as is trying to dismiss one or the other as irrelevant. Watching the ongoing debate between advocates for individual lenses on change versus systemic lenses has made me wonder if what we might be dealing with is, in fact, a polarity and whethe...

Developmental Coaching Starts With the Coach

1 hr 21 min

As those of you who listen to this podcast or read my articles probably already know, the topic of ‘walking the talk’ – the capacity to be the person you are asking (or raising, coaching, teaching) others to be – is very important to me. I believe this to be true in many contexts, but particularly so in professions where the very focus of our work is supporting others’ growth. Therapists, Coaches, Facilitators – all have, I believe, a big responsibility in doing the work of development for themselves, just as they do it with their clients. Scaffolds like mentoring and supervision go a long way to keeping us honest and evolving, but so do our own efforts, day in and day out. But what do those efforts look like? What does it mean to ‘embody the work’? In this episode I explore these very questions with my dear friend and fellow coach, Priya Ahuja. I’ve met Priya in a context where I was a newcomer, entering an established group of long-time coaches of which she was part. From the get-go I was touched by her authenticity, integrity, openness, and generosity in helping me feel right at home in that high-stakes environment. Over the years, we have become friends and I have learnt so much from her on the art of coaching, but also on the art of being a wise human being. To me, Priya is a coach who walks the talk and I have invited her to unpack what that means for her, what is the inner work she is doing to keep herself honest, aware and cultivate within herself the wisdom she is striving to support in her clients. About Priya Priya brings more than two decades of experience at McKinsey & Company as a leader supporting individualand institutional transformation. She now works for herself as a leadership coach and facilitator. She also mentorscoaches seeking to further develop their capacities. Priya supports senior leaders across the globe on tailored, individual leadership journeys anchored in their current strengths, helping them realise and live into their full potentia...

What Does it Mean to Be a Developmental Leader?

1 hr 24 min

Thanks for listening to The Developmental Podcast! Subscribe for free to receive new episodes and support my work. This has been a very important and emotional conversation for me. The topic itself, being a developmental leader, is at the core of my own work and research. With every new answer I uncover, a hundred more questions come up so this subject is likely to keep me busy for the rest of my professional life. On a personal level, I am very grateful I was gifted with people like Mike Vierow in my life, who have supported my own development, encouraged my crazy dreams and have demonstrated for me what it actually feels like to be in a nurturing learning space and surrounded by people who are embodied developmental catalysts. We talk a lot about what impactful leadership means and I believe we don’t hear enough true stories about the lived beauty and messiness of being that leader for others and developing yourself in the process. As you will hear, it’s not all joyful, it’s definitely not easy, there’s a lot of fear, risk-taking and failure involved. But it’s also about love, integrity and staying anchored in positive intent, even at the hardest of times. I hope Mike’s story as a leader and my own story of being at the receiving end of his leadership style will invite all of you who listen to reflect on who the developmental leaders in your own lives might have been and what exactly did they do to nurture your growth? And most of all, I hope it invites you to consider who are the people you are being a developmental leader for? Who are you impacting through the way you show up every day? Who are you going to believe in next, who are you going to lift up, coach, encourage, let fail and learn and be there with no judgement when they get lost, trusting they’ll find their way again? Finding some interesting ideas here? Feel free to share this podcast with others who might use the reflection. About Mike Vierow Mike has had experience in leading complex adaptive tr...

How Do We Design Learning for Vertical Development?

1 hr 9 min

Our guest for this episode is one of the leading researchers and practitioners in the space of vertical development. Nick Petrie has been a pioneer in bridging the science and application of adult development theories into organisational learning. His whitepapers on designing and implementing developmentally effective learning programs have inspired a whole new generation of researchers. Nick is currently breaking new ground in studying burnout and its developmental implications, as well as supporting leaders and learning designers to create their own developmental programs through his Vertical Incubator project. Nick is a researcher and speaker on leadership, resilience and burnout prevention. A New Zealander, with significant international experience, Nick has lived and worked in the U.S., Europe, Asia, The Middle East and Scandinavia. His clients include Google, Walmart, NASA, Delta and Novartis. He has worked globally across industries including healthcare, tech, banking, education, energy, law and television. He holds a Master's degree from Harvard University and is the author of the book "Work Without Stress: Building a Resilient Mindset for Lasting Success". To learn more about Nick and his work you can visit his website here. Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

Vertical Development and Parenting: How Raising Kids Raises Us

1 hr 7 min

In this very special episode, we explore how raising children can be a catalyst for vertical development and how our kids end up, in a very real sense, raising us, just as we are raising them. My dialogue partner is a dear friend, senior leader and a mother who has walked the talk of personal transformation in the act of raising her (now adult) children and has then taken those lessons back into her leadership. Genevieve Hawkins is General Manager Transformation and Supply Chain at Coles Liquor Group and the author of the book "Mentally at Work" - a powerful and practical guide for creating workplaces where humans can thrive. From the start of her career as an occupational therapist, Genevieve has had a passion for understanding and influencing the psychology of how people not just cope but thrive under pressure. This passion led her to further study and exploration of how leaders, teams and cultures perform and has seen Genevieve move from the health system to insurance, to risk management consulting, to the corporate world.  Genevieve is now a senior executive with extensive experience in leading major change programs in large organisations and is cognisant of seeing things from a different perspective given her mix of experiences and qualifications which includes parenting two, now adult children, of which one is transgender. It is this different perspective that led Genevieve to write Mentally at Work to help current and future leaders, lead in a way that makes a difference to individuals, teams and organisational performance. And it resulted in her becoming the sponsor for Pride at Coles. She believes in the value of simplicity, pragmatism, finding the right way to talk about the elephants in the room, embracing clunky conversations and the importance of sticking to your ‘true north’ in order to get the right long-term outcome for a business and its people and herself. Enjoy our vulnerable conversation about motherhood, dying and birthing identities, le...

Giftedness, Neurodivergence and Vertical Development

1 hr 23 min

In this episode, I am joined by a self-confessed fellow 'nerd' to explore a topic that has hardly ever been discussed in relation to vertical development: adult giftedness and neurodivergence. Dr. Tracy Winter is is a leadership coach specializing in neurodiversity and the founder of Nerd Coach⁠. She enjoys coaching clients who are gifted, ADHDers, autistic, dyslexic, and more. Each client she meets has a unique brain that deserves its own unique approach, and she partners with her clients to use their strengths to reach the outcomes they desire. Tracy trains new ADHD coaches and is a mentor coach for students at the International ADHD Coach Training Center. She also facilitates leadership development training with organizations such as Tesla and has been an adjunct professor at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology.  Tracy earned a Ph.D. in Human Development, an MA in Human and Organization Systems, and an Evidence-Based Coaching Certificate from Fielding Graduate University. Her dissertation focused on the social-emotional needs of highly gifted adults. Tracy also holds a Professional Certified Coach (PCC) credential from the International Coach Federation (ICF) and is the immediate Past President of the ICF Greater Austin Chapter. Here are a few of the things Tracy has learnt in her work and which we explore in our dialogue together: Many neurodivergent adults (particularly gifted ones) don't self-identify as such Neurodivergent people often have different social-emotional needs that go unnoticed. Development in neurodivergent people is by excellence asynchronous - with some exceptionally developed capacities in some areas and limitations in others. That holds true of vertical development more broadly - where lines of development rarely, if ever, evolve at the same pace. People often have the solutions within them; they just need the right questions to find them - so that's why coaching can be an extremely powerful tool for neurodivergent people...

Mindfulness: A Path to Vertical Development

1 hr 20 min

In this episode, we explore the bridges between the new field of vertical development and the ancient practice of mindfulness with the help of Michael Bunting - author, researcher, and leadership expert. We discover how certain types of meditation - such as insight-mindfulness practice - can actually create an impact on vertical development by teaching us to recognise and lean into the most difficult feelings (the ones we usually try to avoid). This ancient practice is consistent with the newest research on adult development and the role of contrasting emotions in vertical growth. We also talk about love, addiction, what it takes to open up our hearts and how organisations might become places of healing, instead of suffering. Michael is the author of the bestselling books The Mindful Leader and A Practical Guide to Mindful Meditation and co-authored Extraordinary Leadership in Australia & New Zealand with Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner, some of the world’s premier researchers and authors in the field of leadership. His latest book, published in October 2022, Vertical Growth, is a must-read book for anyone wanting to master self-awareness and lifelong growth. He is the founder of Awakened Mind, a mindfulness IOS/Android App and The Mindful Leader leadership consultancy. Michael and his team have worked with some of the world’s most prestigious organisations in the area of executive leadership, mindfulness, mental health, adult development and scaled culture change. Several of his clients are award-winning best employers, and his app has been academically researched and proven to produce substantial improvement in key areas impacting mental health and team performance. He lives with his wife and 4 children in Sydney, Australia. Beyond his books and app, Michael recommends two well-known apps for beginning meditatiors - Calm and Insight Timer.  Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

Friendship: Catalyst for Vertical Development

1 hr 20 min

This is a very special episode of The Developmental, featuring two adult development experts who are also best friends. They will open up the inner sanctum of their 12-year friendship to explore why and how it has transformed each of them, and what other people might learn from it all. This is an episode filled with personal life stories, but also one grounded in a research-based framework on transformative relationships. The story of one friendship will illuminate how this framework actually works and how you might bring it to life in your own friendships or other meaningful relationships.  Veronica Brejan is Managing Partner at NeuroMindfulness® Institute and a former international HR Director. Veronica held top HR positions in London, Paris and Eastern Europe: Chief People Officer Europe (Pizza Hut, Yum! Brands), Global Head of Talent (Vodafone), and internal HR advisor roles in KPMG, Cargill and Alstom. Her areas of expertise are leadership development, executive coaching, talent strategy and organizational culture. Veronica holds an EMBA from the Maastricht School of Management and Master in Business Communication. She is an ICF-certified executive coach (ACC), holding certifications from Barrett Values Center (Evolutionary Coaching) and the Institute of Human Excellence founded by Sir John Whitmore (Transpersonal Coaching). She is also a trained Yoga teacher and accredited Practitioner of NLP, Timeline Therapy and Hypnotherapy with the American Board of NLP. Veronica and Alis have been best friends for 12 years. Their career paths have intersected, then diverged in complementary ways. Their life paths have been at times uncannily similar, and at other times radically different. They have lived in the same city, then in different countries and finally on different continents for years, and discovered how to keep friendship alive over long distances. They have been through ups and downs - separately and together - and have learnt how to be there for eachother...

Dr. Valerie Livesay on Fallback: How We Grow from Being at Our Worst

1 hr 13 min

In this episode, I am joined by Dr. Valerie Livesay, a passionate researcher who has devoted her work to illuminating the darker corners of our beings and the role our worst moments play in our long-term development. We talk about a core concept stemming from Valerie's research - Fallback - which describes those moments in life when we involuntarily revert to less mature ways of behaving and find ourselves simply unable to access our usual sense of perspective and wisdom. We discuss how vertical development is not at all a linear journey and is more of a 'two steps forward-one step backward' progression. We explore what triggers fallback, and how it manifests in our life both at work and at home. Valerie shares her insights into how we might turn moments of fallback into precious lessons for growth.  Valerie introduces us to the metaphor of theatre as a description of our multi-faceted self and the idea of "Ghost Light" as an invitation to shed light on the 'inner characters' we usually avoid facing. While befriending those 'fallback characters' can be e lifetime's work - Valerie makes an excellent case as to why it can be deeply rewarding, worthwhile work.  To dive more deeply into Dr. Livesay's work and gain a more thorough understanding of your own Fallback patterns and ways to change them, I invite you to read her book: "Leaving the Ghost Light Burning: Illuminating Fallback in Embrace of the Fullness of You" and explore the course by the same name, which Valerie will be facilitating in 2023.  Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

Vertical Development And Leadership Learning with Marti Hughes and Alis

48 min

This has been a great conversation with a leader who actively integrates the practices of vertical development into both his own life and his work. Marti Hughes is currently the Principal of Organisational Leadership at Tennis Australia, and has been involved with leadership and capability development for the past 20 years. Adult development has become a passion subject in recent years and he has been introducing it into leaderships programs at Tennis. He has equally used the developmental lens to make sense of his own life's growth and continue to stretch himself into new octaves of development.  We talk about the messiness of growth, the generational conflict in organisations and how adult development done right might transform the cultures we live and work in.  For useful resources and extra reading, check out the podcast page:  Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

What is Vertical Development and Why Does It Matter?

24 min

In this episode it is just me and you, trying to unpack some of the core theories of adult development and lay a foundation for the conversations to come. I invite you to reflect on your own journey of growth up to this point in your life and on what you feel might still be needed. Together we explore what vertical development is, how it is different from horizontal development and why we need both. We also look at some of the science around vertical development and what different researchers suggest it is that develops as we continue to evolve in our lives.  Finally, we pause to reflect on why this whole topic is so important, perhaps even vital not just for you and your own life, but for all of us and our long-term thriving as a species. Find the resources for this episode: www.verticaldevelopmentinstiute.com/podcast Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

Welcome to The Developmental Podcast!

5 min

This is a podcast about the messy, beautiful ways grown-ups grow up. Here we explore turning science into the day-to-day practice of adult development in teams, homes, organisations, and life. I'm Alis Anagnostakis, host of this podcast and founder of the Vertical Development Institute. In this short introduction, I share a bit of the story that led me to study adult development and ready you for what you can expect from this monthly podcast. I will invite leaders, learning experts, and developmental researchers to share their own experiences of growth, to help make the science accessible and, most importantly, share perspectives, tools and practices you can apply to your own work and life. As we go along, we’ll explore development in leadership, in teams and in organisations, but we’ll also shift gears and look at development in our personal relationships or in the way we raise our own children.  Once per month, we’ll invite you into a new story and a new reflection. I hope, as you listen, that you feel inspired to create new meaningful experiments for yourself, ones that you can learn from and grow from. Here, in ‘The Developmental’ space, we assume none of us has the answers and none of us has yet ‘arrived’ in our quest for adulthood. We’re all humbly learning from each other and striving towards more maturity every day. So come join me and my guests on this learning so we may find new ways to continue growing ourselves up.  Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

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