Dillon Mulroy, Rhys Sullivan, and Sunil Pai

The Next Token

A Technology , News and Tech News podcast Explicit

#142 in Technology · 🇸🇪 #156 in Technology · 🇮🇳

About the show

The Next Token is a technical, conversational podcast from Sunil Pai, Dillon Mulroy, and Rhys Sullivan about the ideas, tools, and weird edges shaping software right now. Expect candid conversations about AI, developer experience, building on the web, open source, infrastructure, and the work behind the work: what they are trying, what is breaking, what is actually useful, and what deserves a second look. Cloudflare sponsors the show, but the conversations are host-led, curious, and independent in spirit.

Newest episodes

"Nobody's Going to Write the Next React" - Ep 08

Nov 9, 2026 1 hr 5 min

Recorded October 30, 2026. Armin Ronacher and Mario Zechner of Earendil join Dillon and Rhys. Mario explains his "software is dead" tweet, admits he always pushes to main, and the group figures out whether code review was ever more than theater. Dillon walks through Cloudflare's Engineering Codex and AI code reviewer, Armin tells the story of two agents passing ZIP files to each other over WhatsApp, and Armin and Mario explain what Earendil wants to be next year. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER SOFTWARE IS DEAD. SAD. Mario, "software is dead. sad." https://x.com/badlogicgames/status/2115002476311241104 Mario, "jk" https://x.com/badlogicgames/status/2115527464978137477 Schleudertrauma (German Wikipedia) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleudertrauma Cristina Poncela Cubeiro, Earendil https://ai.engineer/speakers/cristina-poncela-cubeiro CODE REVIEW IS THEATER Justin Bennett, "Code Review Sucks Now, but It Doesn't Have To" https://just-be.dev/blog/code-review-sucks-now Pi https://pi.dev Pi Durable https://earendil.com/posts/pi-durable Pi Durable on Cloudflare https://earendil.com/posts/pi-durable-on-cloudflare "About 1,000 podcast episodes" on Pi Durable https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pi+durable OpenCode https://opencode.ai Cloudflare, "Code Orange: Fail Small is complete" (the Engineering Codex) https://blog.cloudflare.com/code-orange-fail-small-complete/ RFC 2119, MUST / SHOULD / MAY https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2119/ Cloudflare, "Orchestrating AI Code Review at scale" https://blog.cloudflare.com/ai-code-review/ Kimi https://www.kimi.com/ Armin, "Engineering for Breathing Room" https://mitsuhiko.github.io/talks/engineering-at-earendil Lefos https://lefos.com THE BIRTH OF WAY TOO MUCH SOFTWARE ArtCraft https://getartcraft.com GIMP https://www.gimp.org Foldkit https://foldkit.dev Effect https://effect.website Moltbook https://www.moltbook.com Cloudflare Hyperdrive https://developers.cloudflare.com/hyperdrive...

"What's after Code Mode" - Ep 07

Oct 19, 2026 1 hr 25 min

Recorded October 12, 2026. Matt Carey from Cloudflare joins Dillon, Rhys, and Sunil as Code Mode turns one year old. We discuss where it came from, how it actually works, and what comes after it. Rhys explains Claude modding video games + the dead internet of Facebook Marketplace, Dillon describes the AI moment for normies, and Matt tells a story about a big defense contractor. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER LIFE UPDATES Dillon, Artifacts open beta https://x.com/dillon_mulroy/status/2105647446789374456 Rhys, Claude gave Inertial Drift custom servers + maps https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2106604353058697699 Rhys, Inertial Drift first-person mode https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2109689736860475597 PC Gamer, reskate modding platform https://www.pcgamer.com/games/sports/reskate-modding-platform-released/ Rhys, Muse lists a broken lamp https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2109042678205976921 CODE MODE Cloudflare, "Code Mode: the better way to use MCP" https://blog.cloudflare.com/code-mode/ Rhys, bash took 30 years, MCP was vibe coded in a weekend https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2109096851647721782 CodeAct (Apple) https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/codeact Matt, "Code Mode: give agents an entire API in 1,000 tokens" https://blog.cloudflare.com/code-mode-mcp/ Pi https://pi.dev OpenCode 2.0 https://x.com/opencode/status/2109680780779606057 Dillon, Code Mode + Jev in Pi https://x.com/dillon_mulroy/status/2105453668266873091 TypeSafe, Jev https://typesafe.ai/blog/introducing-system-one-models-and-jev QuickJS https://bellard.org/quickjs/ Cloudflare Computer https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-computer Vercel Run SDK https://vercel.com/blog/introducing-run Callscript https://github.com/vercel-labs/callscript WHAT'S NEXT AFTER CODE MODE? Kent C. Dodds, Kody https://kentcdodds.com/blog/introducing-kody-your-personal-software-factory Rhys, Executor v2 Gmail with a 5-minute cancel https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2108317018948...

"The Senior Engineer Death Spiral" - Ep 06

Sep 28, 2026 1 hr 16 min

Recorded September 21, 2026. Sunil and Rhys join the Jevolution. Sunil explains the Senior Engineer Death Spiral, the blog post that blew up his DMs (and annoyed capital-E Engineers on Hacker News). Rhys looks back on YC and shows off his latest workflow. And we definitely do not talk about AI safety. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER INTRO Executor (Rhys's company) https://executor.sh OpenAI, re: Navier-Stokes Millennium Prize Problem https://openai.com/index/navier-stokes-solution/ Navier-Stokes credit drama https://www.axios.com/2026/09/08/openai-math-solution-navier-stokes-credit OpenAI's models resolve 100+ open math problems https://techcrunch.com/2026/09/21/openai-forms-math-advisory-group-as-its-ai-resolves-more-than-100-open-problems/ Astra https://techcrunch.com/2026/09/03/openai-launches-astra-its-powerful-and-controversial-new-model/ Rhys's "make it fast" walk https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2101807287421808805 THE JEVOLUTION TypeSafe, Introducing System One Models & Jev https://typesafe.ai/blog/introducing-system-one-models-and-jev Noul (Jev's "how much of a yes" answer) https://docs.typesafe.ai/primitives/noul Sunil's disaster-prone city sim https://x.com/threepointone/status/2100576921629163848 Live-editing a tldraw canvas with Jev https://x.com/jackcheng/status/2100729670991802386 json-render + Jev, by Chris Tate (ctate) https://x.com/ctatedev/status/2101022101750571357 Vercel eve, auto-approving tool calls with Jev https://vercel.com/kb/guide/auto-approve-tool-calls-eve-jev Code Mode https://blog.cloudflare.com/code-mode/ Jevons paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox William Stanley Jevons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stanley_Jevons The TypeSafe team https://x.com/typesafeai/affiliates TypeSafe's CEO enjoying Discord https://x.com/typesafeai/status/2101451220896682107 TypeSafe Discord https://discord.gg/typesafe Diogo Almeida at Cloudflare Connect 2026 https://x.com/Cloudflare/status/21010164...

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All episodes

"Nobody's Going to Write the Next React" - Ep 08

Nov 9, 2026 1 hr 5 min

"What's after Code Mode" - Ep 07

Oct 19, 2026 1 hr 25 min

"The Senior Engineer Death Spiral" - Ep 06

Sep 28, 2026 1 hr 16 min

"I'm the Arbiter of Tokens and GPUs" - Ep 05

Aug 31, 2026 56 min

Recorded August 24, 2026. Special guest Michelle Chen answers our questions about inference. The AI industry lights money on fire. Sunil plans his LLM prepper era. Rhys takes the week off, preparing for YC Demo Day! LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER Executor (Rhys's company) https://executor.sh Y Combinator Demo Day https://www.ycombinator.com/demoday Michelle Chen on X https://x.com/michellechen Love Island S8 villa tour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2gjF5NFQng Cloudflare Workers AI https://www.cloudflare.com/products/workers-ai/ Cloudflare AI Gateway https://www.cloudflare.com/products/ai-gateway/ Cloudflare AI Search https://developers.cloudflare.com/ai-search/ Models on Workers AI https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers-ai/models/ Cloudflare/NVIDIA GPU blog post (2021) https://blog.cloudflare.com/bringing-ai-to-the-edge/ Dane Knecht, Cloudflare CTO on X https://x.com/dok2001 Birthday week https://blog.cloudflare.com/tag/birthday-week/ Unifying Workers AI and AI Gateway https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-ai-gateway-unification/ Z.ai / Zhipu (GLM) https://z.ai Hugging Face https://huggingface.co Cloudflare R2 https://www.cloudflare.com/products/r2/ SGLang https://x.com/sgl_project vLLM https://docs.vllm.ai OpenRouter model discounts https://openrouter.ai/models?discount=true DeepSeek https://www.deepseek.com Moonshot AI (Kimi) https://www.moonshot.ai Moondream https://moondream.ai OpenAI io (Jony Ive) https://openai.com/sam-and-jony/ SlopCodeBench (aka "SlopBench") https://github.com/humanlayer/advanced-context-engineering-for-coding-agents Opus 5 on SlopCodeBench https://github.com/humanlayer/advanced-context-engineering-for-coding-agents/blob/main/benchmarking-opus-5-on-slop-code-bench.md The Next Token Ep 03 (AI psychosis) https://youtu.be/2bE93tynluk Ox Alpha/GLM-5.3 Flash https://x.com/Zai_org/status/2092616204787626030 The subreddit for Sunil https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/ Solarpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

"We've Never Been Wrong on the Internet Before" - Ep 04

Aug 17, 2026 1 hr 6 min

Recorded August 7, 2026. We explore AI alignment & safety, Rhys demos his workflow, and we end up mentioning a lot of books. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER AI ALIGNMENT Wikipedia, AI alignment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_alignment Wikipedia, AI safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_safety "Some Moral and Technical Consequences of Automation," Norbert Wiener https://www.cs.umd.edu/users/gasarch/BLOGPAPERS/moral.pdf Three laws of robotics (Asimov) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics Thinking Machines in Dune https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Thinking_Machines 1960 in music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_in_music Billionaires building NZ bunkers https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaire-boltholes-inside-doomsday-hideouts-170000871.html Rhys tweet on sandboxes https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2085601612266115487 OpenAI/Hugging Face incident at Black Hat USA 2026 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87DyyMV0kCY OpenAI blog post about Hugging Face incident https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-security-incident/ Hugging Face timeline of the incident https://huggingface.co/blog/agent-intrusion-technical-timeline Artifactory https://jfrog.com/artifactory/ Modal https://modal.com US Congress calls for open hearings with AI executives https://casar.house.gov/media/press-releases/casar-leads-call-congressional-hearings-ai-ceos Sunil Kenton Varda tweet https://x.com/threepointone/status/2019124493395063134 Cap'n Proto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%27n_Proto Paperclip Maximizer https://nickbostrom.com/ethics/ai Hugging Face's initial security disclosure https://huggingface.co/blog/security-incident-july-2026 Project Glasswing at Cloudflare https://blog.cloudflare.com/cyber-frontier-models/ Claude's Constitution https://www.anthropic.com/constitution qntm - https://qntm.org There Is No Antimemetics Division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_Is_No_Antimemetics_Division Valuable Humans in Transit http...

"I'm Tired of the Uncertainty of Where This Is Going" - Ep 03

Aug 10, 2026 55 min

Recorded August 3, 2026. We discuss burnout, Claudeisms sneaking into regular speech, chip butties, how to watch movies, and what brings us joy. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER A VESSEL FOR CLAUDE Rhys "vessel for Claude" tweet - https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2072968219741278582 Dolly/zoom shot from "Jaws" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in_mAvHu9E4 /bro https://github.com/backnotprop/bro "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlön,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius https://sites.evergreen.edu/politicalshakespeares/wp-content/uploads/sites/226/2015/12/Borges-Tl%C3%B6n-Uqbar-Orbius-Tertius.pdf Ficciones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficciones Empirical evidence of Large Language Model's influence on human spoken communication https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.01754 Bill Oliver's likely-LLM-generated speech https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/bill-oliver-ai-legislature-reaction-9.7296118 BURNOUT Dillon tweet about joy & burnout https://x.com/dillon_mulroy/status/2073886986117447715 Scott Tolinski mental health survey tweet https://x.com/stolinski/status/2083217955849195640 Direct link to Scott's survey https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdij87S57ibtMm2yPotcL0Ipd-c4ybQ45FgPqNTvVVW4pGU5w/viewform Definition of burnout from W.H.O. https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupational-phenomenon-international-classification-of-diseases Marcy Sutton Todd on BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:tzdj4b4znqjiuau7plthr6f7 Christina Maslach on burnout (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRPBkCW0R5E Ethan Niser "Not Holding Back the Ocean" https://ethanniser.substack.com/p/not-holding-back-the-ocean Kirwin Hampshire, "The Dark Night of Mathematics" https://kirwinhampshire.substack.com/p/the-dark-night-of-mathematics Arvind Narayanan's thought experiment on LLMs outputting binaries instead of source code https://substack.com/@aisnakeoil/note/c-303550018 Sunil's Pizzo https://github.com/threepointone/pizzo Coun...

"I've Never Seen a Model Say 'This File Is Getting Too Big'" - Ep 02

Jul 23, 2026 1 hr 12 min

Recorded July 17, 2026. We settle the model-access bet. We talk about how the labs talk to us, plus extend an open invite for OpenAI, Anthropic, SpaceX, and Thinking Machines to come on the show and be specific about their best-case scenarios about how AI makes the world better. Thinking Machines ships an American open-weight model. And then Dillon fires the slop cannon, walking us through his agentic workflow, while a package he technically did not order shows up. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER NEWS & DISCUSSION Rhys on his first weeks with the model (X) https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2076353287507562728?s=20 OpenAI comms example (Thomas Sottiaux) https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2075641131002700120?s=20 Anthropic / Claude Developers post https://x.com/ClaudeDevs/status/2077603834453770467?s=20 Anthropic's July 15 "reset" note https://x.com/claudeai/status/2075271759289303522?s=20 Introducing Inkling (Thinking Machines) https://thinkingmachines.ai/news/introducing-inkling/ Xiaoyin Qu's Thinking Machines thesis (X) https://x.com/quxiaoyin/status/2077799672886792578?s=46 Cloudflare's Workers AI https://www.cloudflare.com/products/workers-ai/ "The Future Worth Building Is Human" (Thinking Machines manifesto) https://thinkingmachines.ai/blog/the-future-worth-building-is-human/ "The Use of Knowledge in Society," Friedrich Hayek https://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/hykKnw.html "The Bitter Lesson," Rich Sutton http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html Ramp's PorTAL fine-tuning https://x.com/RampLabs/status/2072383318516187380 The A-Team (not five Mr. T's) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_A-Team Hawaii Five-O (maybe what Sunil was thinking of when he said Miami Five-O, but really meant The A-Team…it happens) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Five-O_(1968_TV_series) John's of Bleecker Street pizza https://johnsofbleecker.com/ Local First Conf 2026 https://www.localfirstconf.com/ Dan Ingalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_...

"I Want Your Product to Enable My Agent" - Ep 01

Jul 3, 2026 1 hr 13 min

Recorded June 30, 2026, 2pm Pacific. Live from AI Engineer World's Fair! Fable is still banned (as of recording time, ahem). Advice: Build for agents. We're still talking about loops, but which loops? And more receipts are demanded. LINKS / ON-SCREEN REFERENCES, IN ORDER IN THE NEWS Model-tiers image (OpenAI forum) https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/openai1/original/4X/f/0/8/f088bfcb17e4f7a8da3d2ba48d6391fa5a9201d9.jpeg Claude models page (four model cards) https://claude.com/platform/api Starbucks sizes https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/409/hot "Freedom of intelligence" tweet (Quinn Slack) https://x.com/sqs/status/2071690420548198581 Magnitude / harness-level routing https://magnitude.dev Anthropic's "Project Deal" https://www.anthropic.com/features/project-deal "The Dumb Zone" tweet (Matt Pocock) https://x.com/mattpocockuk/status/2071288332642812229 Regulation / CA gov tweet https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2071632971388662233 Rhys tweets to poke additional bears https://x.com/RhysSullivan/status/2071811069002281335 TOPIC - I DON'T WANT TO USE YOUR AGENT "I don't want to use your product's agent (Dillon quote-tweet) https://x.com/dillon_mulroy/status/2070983687785914822 Dax's original tweet https://x.com/thdxr/status/2071010042216665452 Low-level-learning PlanetScale fireside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tRi1RYf7c A wild PlanetScale CTO appears https://x.com/NickVanWig SOCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_operations_center Ankur Goyal / Braintrust "two mega-trends" tweet https://x.com/ankrgyl/status/2071329164125147440 Dillon's reply to Ankur https://x.com/dillon_mulroy/status/2071330371283915027 "The Primitive is the Product" - Lenny Pruss, Amplify Partners https://www.amplifypartners.com/blog-posts/the-primitive-is-the-product "I am a golden god" - "Almost Famous" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCfFCFkVSss Rita Kozlov - "Welcome to Agents Week" (the math on scaling agents to the masses) https://blog.cloudflare.com/welco...

"None of My Software Has Gotten Better" - Ep 00

Jun 29, 2026 52 min

Recorded June 15, 2026. Dillon, Rhys, and Sunil discuss the Fable/Mythos situation and require receipts for bold claims about how AI is changing everything. Follow Dillon Mulroy - @dillon_mulroy / dillonis.online / twitch.tv/dillon Rhys Sullivan - @RhysSullivan / rhys.dev / executor.sh Sunil Pai - @threepointone / sunilpai.dev The Next Token - YouTube / X Topics The Fable/Mythos situation Feelings, etc. Can you trust a tool that quietly degrades itself? Why more code hasn't meant better software. Open weights, sovereign models, and where access to intelligence is heading. Receipts Required Revisiting bold predictions (accurate and otherwise). In the News Claude Fable 5 & Claude Mythos 5. Anthropic's launch announcement (June 9, 2026): anthropic.com/news/claude-fable-5-mythos-5. Priced at $10 per million input tokens / $50 per million output tokens. Safeguards fall back to Claude Opus 4.8 on: cybersecurity, biology, chemistry, and distillation. Access suspended by the US government. Anthropic's statement (June 12, 2026): anthropic.com/news/fable-mythos-access. Fable 5 / Mythos 5 system card (safeguards, alignment, evals): anthropic.com/claude-fable-5-mythos-5-system-card. Project Glasswing (the Mythos cybersecurity project): anthropic.com/glasswing. Receipts Required Geoffrey Hinton: "People should stop training radiologists now. It's just completely obvious that within five years deep learning is going to do better than radiologists. … It might be ten years." (Machine Learning and the Market for Intelligence, 2016) Dario Amodei (Anthropic): "I think we will be there in three to six months, where AI is writing 90% of the code. And then, in 12 months, we may be in a world where AI is writing essentially all of the code." (Council on Foreign Relations, March 10, 2025) Sundar Pichai (Google): "Today, more than a quarter of all new code at Google is generated by AI, then reviewed and accepted by engineers. This helps our engineers do more and move fa...

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"Nobody's Going to Write the Next React" - Ep 08

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🇸🇪 Technology Best #142

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🇮🇳 Technology Best #156

Podcast details

Created by: Dillon Mulroy, Rhys Sullivan, and Sunil Pai
Status: Active
Latest episode: Nov 9, 2026
Episodes: 9
Release period: Monthly
Avg. episode length: 1 hr 7 min
Explicit: Yes
Language: English

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